EQ and Compression

[mr_es335]

Good day,
I hope that the day finds you all very well!

What an absolute "crazy time" to be a Canadian!

As a "solo performer" I prefer to do as much as I am able to..."within the box".

More specifically, with regards to SAC, I have two different people assisting me...or should I say, attempting to assist me, with setting up my "Rig".

I must say, all is NOT going very well.

So, I have two questions - based on the following point - if I may call it that...

The point is, "If SAC sounds as good as it does, would not the individual elements be also that good?"
* Such elements would refer to the EQ and COMP.

Are the EQ and COMP not good enough "on there own"?
If the EQ and COMP are good enough "on there own", why would I require a 3rd party EQ and COMP?
* Both of those who are attempting to assist me said that I need 3rd party plug-ins - and when asked "Why?", I have not received a satisfactory reply.

Anyhow, thank you all for your time...appreciated!

PS: I would prefer to stay within the confines of this posting...and the resultant responses. Thanks!

[Pedro V]

Good day,
I hope that the day finds you all very well!

What an absolute "crazy time" to be a Canadian!

As a "solo performer" I prefer to do as much as I am able to..."within the box".

More specifically, with regards to SAC, I have two different people assisting me...or should I say, attempting to assist me, with setting up my "Rig".

I must say, all is NOT going very well.

So, I have two questions - based on the following point - if I may call it that...

The point is, "If SAC sounds as good as it does, would not the individual elements be also that good?"
* Such elements would refer to the EQ and COMP.

Are the EQ and COMP not good enough "on there own"?
If the EQ and COMP are good enough "on there own", why would I require a 3rd party EQ and COMP?
* Both of those who are attempting to assist me said that I need 3rd party plug-ins - and when asked "Why?", I have not received a satisfactory reply.

Anyhow, thank you all for your time...appreciated!

One of the reasons I use SS is its quality, and I like to stay within the environment.

I use the 32-bit version with all the native plugins. Speaking of quality, I've also purchased the old ANWIDA Soft native plugins. There are also the Sonoris ones.

I think you're a solo guitarist who uses SAC64; if so, I don't see the need to use third-party stuff. In any case, I'd try to avoid leaving the environment. That said, what makes the difference is you working well as a sound engineer and with your guitar.

[mr_es335]

Pedro,

In light of your reply...

"Speaking of quality"...totally subjective...sorry!

"I think you're a solo guitarist who uses SAC64"...Yes!

"If so, I don't see the need to use third-party stuff"...sorry, does not answer the question.

"In any case, I'd try to avoid leaving the environment"....agreed!

"That said, what makes the difference is you working well as a sound engineer"...I am NOT a sound engineer!

[UpTilDawn]

....

The point is, "If SAC sounds as good as it does, would not the individual elements be also that good?"
* Such elements would refer to the EQ and COMP.

Are the EQ and COMP not good enough "on there own"?
If the EQ and COMP are good enough "on there own", why would I require a 3rd party EQ and COMP?
* Both of those who are attempting to assist me said that I need 3rd party plug-ins - and when asked "Why?", I have not received a satisfactory reply.

...

SAC/SAW Eq and Comp sound as Bob (either) intended, and/or designed them to work for his preferred needs and to his perception of what is required for a solid, useful channel strip process (at least as I recall his past comments on the subject)

I think most who have used them describe them as being well-designed, more than adequate and in fact, highly useful.
I've also seen the comp described as very neutral and transparent (something desirable in a strip processor).

Many people feel the need to use plugins that impart very particular colorization, or sauce to the sound. I believe this is the primary reason you may find a push for the use of third-party plugins. Not necessarily to avoid the channel strip processors, but for the special flavor, or vibe some other plugins might give to your sound.

That, and the fact that people tend to "prefer" that with which they have grown accustomed to using - having learned what to expect from the knobs and buttons at their command.

[mr_es335]

UpTilDawn,

Thanks for the reply...

Great responses - "totally" on point, and all of which "totally" makes sense!

Again, thanks for this...always appreciated!

Would you happen to know of any "simple yet concise" tutorials on EQ and Compression - geared towards the neophyte|nubie\cranial deprived, that would be in line with what Bob|SAC provides?

Most that I have come across, seem to start of easy enough, then "bang"...it is as if I have just crossed-over to the valley of the shadow of death!

[UpTilDawn]

This may seem crazy to suggest, but I ran across a video awhile ago called - How To Use Compression (10-Hour Course) - that I thought very well produced and easy to grasp. Don't be overwhelmed by the fact that it's 10 hours long. The basics are very clear and there's plenty of visual and audio examples that really help.

I also find the video format really helps me grasp the concepts behind compression and the many different ways in which it is used far better than simply reading about it (maybe because I was on my own in learning dynamics processors and had no particular guidance in what I was hearing). I still feel like I'm a novice when it comes to compression, especially...

[mr_es335]

UpTilDawn,

Thanks for the suggestion...really appreciated!

I gather this one on compression would be the one: [Click_Me]

Also, there appears to be one by the same fellow on EQ: [Click_Me]

Thanks again...back to school!

Question: Both of these videos focus on Mixing...not live sound. Is the information pertaining to "mixing" relevant to "live sound"?
* I simply cannot afford to waste 9-19 hours of time these days.

[Pedro V]

Pedro,

In light of your reply...

"Speaking of quality"...totally subjective...sorry!

"I think you're a solo guitarist who uses SAC64"...Yes!

"If so, I don't see the need to use third-party stuff"...sorry, does not answer the question.

"In any case, I'd try to avoid leaving the environment"....agreed!

"That said, what makes the difference is you working well as a sound engineer"...I am NOT a sound engineer!

I think in my answer I defended the quality of SS and SAC equalization and compression, although I didn't mention them. That's why I said, about staying in the environment. You agree with that point, but you say quality is subjective. It's a contradiction. When I say sound engineer, I'm referring to you as the operator of your system. Sorry for my English. Yamaha has videos on YouTube that can help you.

[UpTilDawn]

UpTilDawn,

Thanks for the suggestion...really appreciated!

I gather this one on compression would be the one: [Click_Me]

Also, there appears to be one by the same fellow on EQ: [Click_Me]

Thanks again...back to school!

Question: Both of these videos focus on Mixing...not live sound. Is the information pertaining to "mixing" relevant to "live sound"?
* I simply cannot afford to waste 9-19 hours of time these days.

To be clear - no time learning and practicing what is being taught will be wasted time. But both of these videos are full of useful, practical info on the use of compression and eq, whether in a studio mix environment, or a live mix environment.

Best of all in this format, a person can jump around, back and fort, repeat endlessly, slow down, speed up, or skip all together, each and every segment - mixing and matching any ideas that feel relevant to a person's own state of being at any given moment - No One will condemn, ridicule, object, or penalize for a lack of attention, or understanding - or even what is, or is not put into practice.

It's easy to take these lessons in very small doses and in any order of need.

[cgrafx]

The reason you got the answers you did, is the people trying to help you are button pushers. They do not understand the underlying functions of the tools and how to use them.

Somebody showed or told them how to do something and what tool to use, and they do not have the ability to extrapolate that information for use in a generalized manner.

There is nothing wrong with the Compression or EQ in Saw or SAC and you should be able to accomplish what you need to do with those tools.

There are certainly plug-ins that will have specific coloration that may be desired for some specific effect, but that is the exception (meaning you don't just use that in every application).

More importantly it's rare that those stylized plug-ins will actually be anymore useful in a live sound environment, and that coloration will in most cases make the job of live sound engineering more difficult.

Good day,
Are the EQ and COMP not good enough "on there own"?
If the EQ and COMP are good enough "on there own", why would I require a 3rd party EQ and COMP?
* Both of those who are attempting to assist me said that I need 3rd party plug-ins - and when asked "Why?", I have not received a satisfactory reply.

[Ruben VS]

Hi, for me, the compressor is missing an important parameter: the knee. I suggested this a while ago on the forum, but apparently no one cared about it.

[cgrafx]

Hi, for me, the compressor is missing an important parameter: the knee. I suggested this a while ago on the forum, but apparently no one cared about it.

The compressor as implemented currently works extremely well and is very transparent.

For those circumstances where needed and/or desired a 3rd party compressor can always be inserted, but I haven't found the lack of a knee adjustment to be an issue.

I think the lack of interest from the general user base is a good indication that its not a concern for most users.

[UpTilDawn]

I seem to recall that somewhere in the distant past, Bob may have expressed a lack of concern, or enthusiasm for adding a knee to the compressor section, as well. I don't recall what his reasoning may have been, but it would be Bob's call in the end at any rate.

[Bob L]

The knee is built into the algorithm as it is in many of the most famous and popular compressors like the 1176, LA2A, LA3A, etc... I just didn't feel a need for it... my compressor is extremely transparent the way it is, and that was my design goal.

Bob L

[Ruben VS]

The knee is built into the algorithm as it is in many of the most famous and popular compressors like the 1176, LA2A, LA3A, etc... I just didn't feel a need for it... my compressor is extremely transparent the way it is, and that was my design goal.

Bob L

Hi Bob. The compressors you mentioned have very specific tasks for me, and I couldn't use one of them on every channel without using anything else.

Could you explain how the knee is included in the algorithm? That is, does the knee become softer with a lower ratio? Or what the knee's response would be, and what values does it depend on?

[Bob L]

The knee is fixed as it is in these other compressors I mentioned... it is part of the algorithm calculation, but you do not have control to change it.

Bob L

[cgrafx]

Hi Bob. The compressors you mentioned have very specific tasks for me, and I couldn't use one of them on every channel without using anything else.

Could you explain how the knee is included in the algorithm? That is, does the knee become softer with a lower ratio? Or what the knee's response would be, and what values does it depend on?

Maybe it would be easier to explain what sorts of production work you are doing that makes you feel like you need to have a compressor with an adjustable knee or how the built in compressor is somehow failing to provide the sound that you desire.

How is the lack of a knee adjustment affecting the audio?

[Peter O]

I use the SAC compressor and EQ on just about everything. The only times I use a 3. party EQ plugin is when I need a shelf-type filter or if I need a second EQ (to have EQ both pre and post compression). The only times I use a 3. party compressor is when I need a compressor that is NOT neutral sounding.

[Ruben VS]

Maybe it would be easier to explain what sorts of production work you are doing that makes you feel like you need to have a compressor with an adjustable knee or how the built in compressor is somehow failing to provide the sound that you desire.

How is the lack of a knee adjustment affecting the audio?

I'm just very used to changing the knee values when working with digital mixing boards. It's a parameter that I tweak a lot depending on the type of sound I have in the Chanel.

[cgrafx]

I'm just very used to changing the knee values when working with digital mixing boards. It's a parameter that I tweak a lot depending on the type of sound I have in the Chanel.

Hi Ruben, please don't take this as an attack because it's not intended that way.

1. In the context of compressors there is nothing about a digital board that is different than an analog board (so not really relevant)
2. generally speaking, unless a compressor is being specifically used as an effect, you really shouldn't hear the compressor.
3. Again unless you are using a compressor as an actual sonic effect, there isn't a good reason to be tweaking the knee value of a compressor a lot

It sounds to me like something else in your signal chain is not being managed well. I am making some generalized statements here without the full context of your specific music, but if you are not in a very niche genre I suspect you may turning knobs without really understanding why.

Again, I don't know your background or specific usage so I could be way off the mark (but this is my impression from the information you have provided)