OT: Piezo Pickups

by **mr_es335** » Fri Jan 12, 2024 5:24 pm

Philip,

Thanks for pointing this out...totally missed that one...please forgive me!

I personally however, would prefer high-quality download-able audio files rather than relying a video.

Lastly, the current configuration that I am working on is - to me, sounding absolutely wonderful!!

by **cgrafx** » Fri Jan 12, 2024 9:34 am

She is wearing a lav mic, and again I'm 100% positive the input from the sampling mic is gated by the input from the guitar, otherwise it would be adding all sorts of unneeded and unwanted data to the IR calculations.

She was also just demoing the process not capturing a mic for final use.

by **John Ludlow** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:35 pm

OK - now I understand, Dell. Yeah - probably Philip is right. Although, it's a reasonable question. There's a spot at right about 2:00 where she has 'armed' the thing and before she begins to strum, she tells us what she's going to do. I suppose, that there's not a lot of her voice going into that SM81. It's fairly directional and it's not pointed at her mouth. I think there's probably an overhead that we can't see that records her voice give explanations. But - I would think that at least some would bleed through to the mic and the piezo both. If I were her, I would not talk after I had turned on the circuit. So, possibly a better capture could be done than was. Still, though - I like the result she got with it in spite of that flaw. And I forgive whatever flaw there is because it was an educational sales video, after all.

by **cgrafx** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 5:42 pm

mr_es335 wrote:John,

What I was referring to was that during the video, the person is speaking...apparently while the mic is active...and so, why is the voice not being recorded...even at the distance the person is positioned from the mic.
I do not see them disabling the mic during the speaking parts...I was just curious that is all.

For example, at 1:56, the person begins talking, then starts playing...
While the mic is still ON, the person begins talking again - at 2:16
At 2:25 playing resumes...again the mic is active during all this time.

Again, just curious!!

You stated, "Again, I'm not trying to convince you to buy one..." ...John, I never thought that you were!

Most likely because she is not playing the guitar while she is talking. Since there is no direct guitar input there is nothing to match the mic input to and it simply gets thrown away or not recorded.

by **mr_es335** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:16 pm

John,

What I was referring to was that during the video, the person is speaking...apparently while the mic is active...and so, why is the voice not being recorded...even at the distance the person is positioned from the mic.
I do not see them disabling the mic during the speaking parts...I was just curious that is all.

For example, at 1:56, the person begins talking, then starts playing...
While the mic is still ON, the person begins talking again - at 2:16
At 2:25 playing resumes...again the mic is active during all this time.

Again, just curious!!

You stated, "Again, I'm not trying to convince you to buy one..." ...John, I never thought that you were!

by **John Ludlow** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:55 pm

mr_es335 wrote:John,

May I ask why her voice is not being recorded?

???

Why would she record her voice in order to train the Tone Dexter? That doesn't make sense to me. You must have something else in mind. Again, I'm not trying to convince you to buy one. But you wrote that you could not tell the difference between the plain piezo and the Tone Dexter modification of the piezo in what you had listened to. So, I pointed you toward a recording in which there seems to me to be a very marked difference and asked you to note it. Instead, you asked me why her voice wasn't recorded. I suppose the answer to your question is that it wouldn't further the demonstration of the technology - which was the whole point of the video.

But - could you hear how much better the TD made that KKK piezo sound - and also how similar it was to the recording made with the SM81? That's what I want to know.

by **mr_es335** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 8:14 am

John,

May I ask why her voice is not being recorded?
Though the output is indeed impressive, the associated costs - at least to me, do not justify the use of such a device.

With regards to Eva, no I have never met her personally, and "Yes", she is playing the guitar and singing at the same time!

To all...
I was hoping to keep this dialog within the realms of SAC, and thus, the the answer to my original question, "Employing only RML Labs plug-ins , What channel configuration could be employed for removing the inherent piezo output sound for the steel-strung?" ...is simply... "No! Employing only RML Labs plug-ins there are no channel configurations that could be employed for removing the inherent piezo output sound."

With that, I am satisfied, and will consider this matter closed and/or resolved!

Thanks to all who responded...appreciated!!

by **John Ludlow** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 7:32 pm

mr_es335 wrote:Also, the efforts and the associated costs - unless you already happen to own the necessary equipment, in obtaining that "right output" are simply way beyond my limited capabilities.
* At present, I am very much "diggin'" what I hearing from the prototype MiniFlex!!

Well, if you're happy - then I'm happy. And why not - it's probably not possible to be more than very mildly disappointed with any of the 2mic stuff - if even that. Still though, listen to this video of the thing being setup and tell me you can't hear the difference between the K&K piezo pickup by itself and the output of the Tone Dexter, after modeling with a mic, but only having the K&K pickup as input. To me, the second sounds as if it is recorded through a mic - but it isn't. That's just the guitar -> the K&K -> the Tone Dexter to make it sound like the mic - even though that mic isn't on and is no longer needed.

https://youtu.be/DBbOpHUatVI

And the other thing is that although maybe you don't own an expensive condenser mic, you might know someone who would lend you theirs temporarily in order to set your guitar up for the Tone Dexter. And, for that matter, Molly Tuttle did her demonstration using an SM81 mic - which is not inexpensive, but not prohibitively so either - nowhere near a holy-grail studio-only mic. And there are nearly as many of those out there as SM57s - potentially even rentable somewhere near you. But, again: not trying to sway you away from that excellent 2mic. Just hoping you'll see your way to give the Tone Dexter its due.

mr_es335 wrote:
Anyhow...and just for fun, have a listen to these, Song 1 and Song 2
* Though the guitar output sounds like crap, the voice resolves any-and-all such "anomalies!! WOW!!

She's really great, Dell. I'm trying to remember whether you said you knew you knew her - did you? Who was playing the guitar? Was it her, or someone else? A seeming dichotomy of musical styles there. She used every vocal trick she could to convey subtle emotions that words could not. Changes in dynamics, choices of intervals, adding slight delays and slight rushes in timing, adding vocal strain and removing it. Whereas the guitarist played it completely straight and emotionless, but every note was perfectly placed, clean, and in time.

And you're right - it's true - a good performance shines through a questionable recording every time. Even though it makes us wish there was a great recording of it.

by **John F** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:09 pm

Dave Labrecque wrote:I have to wonder if something similar could be achieved with simple EQ curve matching as can be done with Voxengo's CurveEQ and others. Of course, that means having the matching curve online with SAW in Live Mode or something similar. Not ideal for live performance. Although if you're using SAC, you should be fine.

I wondered the same thing. I've tried a few different pickups with my instrument, and can somewhat improve their sound with EQ alone, but I suspect the Tone Dexter is also adding and/or subtracting overtones. It's end result sounds very much like the microphones it was trained with. I have five different mics saved in mine right now. It's been fun recording myself playing the same song, switching through the mics, then listening back and deciding which I like best.

And Dell - to add even more complexity to your simple setup, my goal this year is to get a wireless system. So my instrument will be wired directly to a small bodypack in my pocket, and the receiver and Tone Dexter will be back by the sound board completely out of sight. It won't be cheap but hey - there are tens and tens of dollars to be made in Bluegrass music these days!

John Francis
Rolla, MO

by **TomyN** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:00 am

Dave Labrecque wrote:I have to wonder if something similar could be achieved with simple EQ curve matching as can be done with Voxengo's CurveEQ and others. Of course, that means having the matching curve online with SAW in Live Mode or something similar. Not ideal for live performance. Although if you're using SAC, you should be fine.

You could hook up a dual-FFT Analyzer like SATlive, smaart or SIM or ... and feed the min in the reference input and the piezo into the other one. This yield the differenct between the two signals, so it will give you a clue how to set your EQ. But I think there is much more than just frequency response.

by **mr_es335** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 7:33 am

Good day,

Dave: All three are working here just fine!!

John: Though the Tone Dexter appears to be an interesting concert, I simply do not hear any appreciable difference in the over output.
* Granted, listening to anything on the 'Net is questionable at best.
* These folks should really provide download-able audio data.

Also, the efforts and the associated costs - unless you already happen to own the necessary equipment, in obtaining that "right output" are simply way beyond my limited capabilities.
* At present, I am very much "diggin'" what I hearing from the prototype MiniFlex!!

Anyhow...and just for fun, have a listen to these, Song 1 and Song 2
* Though the guitar output sounds like crap, the voice resolves any-and-all such "anomalies!! WOW!!
* Man, this posting has really "gone south!" MAB!

by **John Ludlow** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 6:29 am

I think those 2mics sound great, Dell. Although, maybe just a tad 'breathy'. Before I understood, I had presumed that there was reverb on all of the performances before I came to realize that it was only on part of the third.

The thing I like about at least the potential of the Tone Dexter, is that the mic you train it with, and its location relative to the instrument, become part and parcel of the sound. So, if you find fault with the result, you can change mics, or move the mic, or change the room, before you re-train it and get a different result. But once you get the sound you desire, it's locked in and you have it. And, in theory, you can get a result that closely matches the sound of a mic that you would never think of taking to a gig - without it actually being there.

I suppose you are limited to the dynamics of a piezo though. It will never track sudden changes in dynamics the way, for instance, a ribbon mic would. A piezo is sluggish by comparison. So, although the Tone Dexter capture of a ribbon mic may have its frequency characteristics, it should still react at the speed of the piezo.

I guess one caveat here is that I'm listening to all of this via the TV speaker through which I experience my Internet these days. It's not a good environment for sonic decision-making.

by **Dave Labrecque** » Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:37 am

Dell, Demo 1 sounds great! Demo 2, not linked, it seems, FYI.

by **mr_es335** » Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:34 am

John and John,

So, I have spent the last hour or so, listing to whatever demos there are out there with regards to the Tone Dexter pedal, and though what I am hearing is interesting, none were at the level of what I was personally expecting!

However, have a peep at these demos, Demo 1, Demo 2 and Demo 3
* All of these demos are by Martin Tallstrom...an excellent "tonal" guitarist!!
* The first tow guitars are inexpensive and no EQ was employed!
* The third guitar I do believe is a Lowden!

As noted previously, the "mods" that I have recently developed - at least to my ears, have only improved on the quality of the output!
* I may provide some sample recordings of this configuration...but am always very much concerned about "leakage"!

by **Dave Labrecque** » Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:26 am

I have to wonder if something similar could be achieved with simple EQ curve matching as can be done with Voxengo's CurveEQ and others. Of course, that means having the matching curve online with SAW in Live Mode or something similar. Not ideal for live performance. Although if you're using SAC, you should be fine.

Hmmm... SAW's showing 4096 samples of latency for CurveEQ (32-bit version jBridged to 64-bit). Hopefully, there's a latency-free EQ-curve-matching VST utility out there. Or maybe CurveEQ without the bridge? I believe there's a 64-bit version out there these days.

by **John Ludlow** » Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:11 am

John F wrote:The answer Dell, (at least in my opinion) is the Tone Dexter pedal by Audio Sprockets. It's not cheap at around $600, but it is THE ANSWER to getting decent sound out of your piezo pickups. (I found one on eBay for a few hundred bucks) To use it, you plug in your guitar from its pickup into one input on the Tone Dexter, and a microphone you've set up into the other input. You then play for a couple of minutes, and it figures out the difference between your microphone sound and your pickup sound, and creates what they call a "wavemap" for that particular combination. You can save (at least on my early version) up to 22 different combinations of instruments and microphones. End result - you plug your guitar into the Tone Dexter and the tone dexter into your sound system, and get microphonic sound out of your piezo pickup. It truly is magic! Take a look at the Audio Sprockets website for more details. (I'm not affiliated with the company, but I probably should be. I'm amazed)

John Francis
Rolla, MO

OOOoooohhhhh.... :-O I want one of those.

It seems like it's doing much the same thing that Sonarworks product does for helping bring a room to flat - and I'm a big fan of that.

This has been a very informative set of posts for me. I've learned a lot about what I didn't know about piezo options. I've just been living-with/EQ-ing the result of in-guitar amplification solutions since the eighties. They're so convenient, and mics on stands are often troublesome - particularly in crowded spaces.

by **mr_es335** » Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:50 am

John,

Firstly, thanks for the suggestion of the Tone Dexter pedal - which I did look into...and which is indeed very interesting!

Secondly, some time ago I wrote a fairly extensive, thirty-two page document outlining what I refer to as "a simplistic approach" to live performance, and which consists of seven criteria, namely:

1) To be as portable as is possible.
2) To be as easy to setup [Load-in] and to take-down [Load-out] as is possible.
3) To be entirely Windows-based.
4) To be able to perform an entire evening's solo performance all with no - or at least, minimal intervention on the part of the performer.
5) To prohibit the use of any type of pedal-board or other such "external" guitar-related gear.
6) To allow for connections for up to four devices consisting of three guitars and one microphone.
7) To be able to accommodate a maximum floor area of thirty-five-four square feet - or five feet by seven feet.

As can be observed in the above, the most significant criteria for or purposes here is criteria #5, "To prohibit the use of any type of pedal-board or other such 'external" guitar-related gear"...thus negating the employment of the Tone Dexter pedal.

However, all is not lost. After perusing over 50 systems - including the highly touted "Barbera Transducers", I decided to revisit the 2Mix...in response to your previous query.

For a time I was the Canadian distributor of the 2Mic - simply meaning that I had "stock" of a number of the various systems and prototypes available to me. To keep a long-story-short, I took one of the existing Model 8 prototypes and revamped that unit to meet my current needs. And low-and-behold, I was "gobsmacked"!
* As present, I am not at liberty to say more as discussions with Ken Donnell are still in their infancy. When I am able to say more, I will then do so.

Anyhow John, thanks again for the "tip" - which was greatly appreciated!!

PS: One other little tid-bit, the Model 8 is low impedance...so no Di is required. A real bonus!!

by **John F** » Sun Jan 07, 2024 1:56 pm

The answer Dell, (at least in my opinion) is the Tone Dexter pedal by Audio Sprockets. It's not cheap at around $600, but it is THE ANSWER to getting decent sound out of your piezo pickups. (I found one on eBay for a few hundred bucks) To use it, you plug in your guitar from its pickup into one input on the Tone Dexter, and a microphone you've set up into the other input. You then play for a couple of minutes, and it figures out the difference between your microphone sound and your pickup sound, and creates what they call a "wavemap" for that particular combination. You can save (at least on my early version) up to 22 different combinations of instruments and microphones. End result - you plug your guitar into the Tone Dexter and the tone dexter into your sound system, and get microphonic sound out of your piezo pickup. It truly is magic! Take a look at the Audio Sprockets website for more details. (I'm not affiliated with the company, but I probably should be. I'm amazed)

John Francis
Rolla, MO

by **mr_es335** » Mon Jan 01, 2024 10:57 am

Philip,

Thanks for this... I will check into these...very much appreciated!

PS: I will consider this situation "closed"!

by **cgrafx** » Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:17 am

There are other less expensive Di alternatives

$99 - https://www.sweetwater.com/c957--Ess_Di ... =StageBug4
$89 - https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... ent-preamp

OT: Piezo Pickups

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