HELP! I'm losing takes!

by **Naturally Digital** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:15 pm

SoundSuite wrote:Dave, I did #1 before myself before if it lets you feel any better.

It does Jon. Thanks.

I had a long session today and followed all the advice presented here... Perfect. Nothing lost, plenty gained!

by **Naturally Digital** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:12 pm

Bob L wrote:I still cannot get your test to overwrite the files... the files got appended.

Yeah, same here. I only lost the files when I used the Retake All command in the second edl made from the master template (as long as you record before doing a Save As. Come to think of it, I guess if you used Retake All in either edl you'd lose the data.

by **Bob L** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:13 pm

I still cannot get your test to overwrite the files... the files got appended.

But... ALWAYS open the templete and immediately save as the new edl... first... before recording anything... that will guarentee that the files are created according to the new edl name and not be connected in any way to the old edl files.

You can always double-check what files you are writing to by clicking on the Setup zone of the Record panel BEFORE you record... this will show you the path and filename where the track data will go.

Bob L

by **Sean McCoy** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:23 pm

SoundSuite wrote:-Start SAW, setup an edl as tempstart.edl with tracks labled, etc.
-Hit record, and get the tracks, save to new edl.
-Pull up tempstart.edl, re-arm, record new tracks and save as new edl.
...both final edls had the latest recording in the tempstart_x.wav and were not appended to the original, therefore 'loosing' the previous.

It's possible that's what I did as well, though I'm reasonably certain I was doing a save as new song and deleting the previous song's regions before recording. But I'm still curious as to why Studio would overwrite those files in that situation rather than appending to them as it normally does. With this idiot at the controls, I need all the idiot-proofing I can get!

by **Ian Alexander** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:14 pm

What would happen if you made tempstart.edl a read-only file?

Nope, just tried it. SS works as expected until you try to save.

by **SoundSuite** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:02 pm

Dave, I did #1 before myself before if it lets you feel any better.

To the best of my memory, this is how it happened:
-Start SAW, setup an edl as tempstart.edl with tracks labled, etc.
-Hit record, and get the tracks, save to new edl.
-Pull up tempstart.edl, re-arm, record new tracks and save as new edl.
...both final edls had the latest recording in the tempstart_x.wav and were not appended to the original, therefore 'loosing' the previous.

The way around, is like Bob said, set up a folder for each and go from scratch for each...or, pull up tempstart.edl, save as new, THEN record.
Always record AFTER you are working in a unique edl is the rule I follow now

by **Naturally Digital** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:25 am

Hi Perry

Thank you for that! Very much.

Yeah, I have been going against my better judgement on these moves. No doubt about that. But no more!! I may even disable the retake all command in my preferences file in case I slip up at some point.

That's a valuable story you shared... I've been fortunate so far in that I've been working with many friends and referrals. I haven't gotten myself into that situation just yet but I can see it coming. No more erasing for me.

I knew I could count on our support group - SSAA.

OK, I'll go back and take my seat now.

Thanks again Perry.

by **Perry** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:48 am

David Vanderploeg wrote: ... and then used the RetakeAll command....

I'm convinced that my other problem from yesterday was a case of using RetakeAll and deleting takes from previous layers. I don't know why I'd gotten into such a habit of using RetakeAll when I should have been using Retake.

Live and learn! Thanks for everyone's patience on this one.

Hi Dave!

For what it's worth... I hate erasing anything during a recording session. I'll avoid that if at all possible. And with the storage space we have available now it usually IS possible! ]known[/U] I didn't mean *that* part! That cost me XXXX dollars!!! (whatever it was).

"BUT..... " says I..

Luckily I had an assistant who was right there during the whole thing and he stuck up for me! She freaked... but finally calmed down and admitted that it was her fault.

I've had a producer or two attempt similar things... but usually I knew them enough to know better and avoided disaster.

My motto.. if you don't have to erase it right then on the spot and there's even any remote possibility that a mistake can be made (which is a *lot* of the time).. then just don't do it!!!

Anway... best of wishes Dave!

Perry

by **Naturally Digital** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:49 pm

I tried extensive testing hoping to duplicate what happened the other day... Everything actually seems to work very well. Base filenames are changed when they should change, no matter how hard I try to mess things up. I actually learned some useful stuff here. I started to think it may be caused by setting a Record Template in the 'setup' edl but no... New base filenames are even created in that case.

I know I didn't manually enter a base filename the other day so that wasn't it.

I think what I had was a case of serious, serious operator error... What I must have done is opened the 'setup' edl and started recording a tune (by accident). Once we stopped, I did a Save As 'tunename'. I think I made this same mistake again later in the session (of recording in the 'setup' edl before doing a SaveAs) and then used the RetakeAll command on this second edl, deleting the wav files for both songs. This I can duplicate, but it's clear that I messed up big time and need to slow down as Robert suggests.

I'm convinced that my other problem from yesterday was a case of using RetakeAll and deleting takes from previous layers. I don't know why I'd gotten into such a habit of using RetakeAll when I should have been using Retake.

Live and learn! Thanks for everyone's patience on this one.

by **Sean McCoy** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:41 am

Very True! I just did another quick test creating a template, recording, then saving with a new EDL name. The base name follows the EDL name exactly as it should, and won't overwrite file data even when the earlier base filename is forced in. Go figure. Maybe one of the musicians just brought a "bad vibe" virus into the room that day.

by **Bob L** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:33 am

Well, we are using computers with Windows... Anything CAN happen.

Bob L

by **Sean McCoy** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:30 am

David Vanderploeg wrote:Ah, OK... In my case, I think it was that I used the Retake All at one point.

In my case, I'm absolutely positive I didn't use any Retake functions during the session. I had six songs in separate, named EDL's that for whatever reason were all referencing the audio file name "Sweet Sue," which was the first song of that day's session. Each song was played back before moving on. Later, I later discovered that the audio files referenced by each of these songs contained only audio from the last song of the six that was recorded. The only exceptions to this were in one or two songs where I changed track names for alternate instrumentation, which created a brand new file. I can think of no explanation for this other than the audio files being overwritten.

As I mentioned to you in my email, Bob, I did suspect that the fact I had completely filled the hard drive during the previous session may have created some sort of reference point error, but that's a wild guess. I had cleared space on the drive before the new session, but hadn't defragged.

I agree that an overwrite prompt would be silly, and is unnecessary given that under normal circumstances the files should be appended, anyway. I've made cursory attempts at recreating the situation, but haven't been able to, which leads me to believe the files will only be overwritten in unusual cases---but it can happen.

by **Bob L** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:22 am

David,

If you enter a Buildmix BaseFilename... IT KEEPS IT... then you will open the possibility of carrying it thru to new SAVE AS spinoff sessions.... ON PURPOSE.

Would you mind explaining what this is used for?

The idea here was to allow you to force buildmix operations into a specific destination folder and hold that for the session and its spinoffs...

For instance, it is sometimes nice to create a Mixes folder under a song folder... then when building a mix the first time, you can change the Basename to point into that folder... from that point on... all mixes will automatically build to that folder until you reset the basename or change it to something else... this will then also carry over to spinoff sessions you may create along the way such as Song1a... Song1b... etc.

By the way you can reset the basename to the default current session path by simply Shift-Clicking in the Basename zone.

Hope that helps.

Bob L

by **Naturally Digital** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:35 am

Bob L wrote:the data was appended... not overwritten... so it does not delete existing data, as far as I can see, except when you tell it to retake.

Ah, OK... In my case, I think it was that I used the Retake All at one point.

I have to leave for a few hours but when I get back I'll repeat the procedure and report back.

I'm glad to hear the data is appended... that's what I always thought happened (under the hood) in this scenario.

Thank for checking on this Bob.

by **Naturally Digital** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:27 am

Bob L wrote:Warning every time you go to overdub in an existing file for every track armed to record would be rather insane, don't you agree.

Of course, and I see what you're saying here... there really is only one time/place to check for this. What about appending the files instead of overwriting them?

DO NOT enter a Base Filename in the template... then when you open the starting template and SAVE AS a new file in a new folder... the base name will follow the new filename... and you will be using a brand new set of files... simple...

In my case, I never entered a Base Filename in the template... What I *may* have done IIRC, is engaged record rdy or possibly even record while having the template open the first time (before Save As to the first song)... I'm guessing that may have locked things in. Bob, except for the separate folders for each song, I really was trying to follow the procedure you outline here.

If you enter a BaseFilename... IT KEEPS IT... then you will open the possibility of carrying it thru to new SAVE AS spinoff sessions.... ON PURPOSE.

Would you mind explaining what this is used for?

So, try this... start fresh... create whatever session template you want... save it and include something in the name so you recognize it as your starting template. Do Not touch the BaseFilename in the BuildMix dialog or Record Setup dialog.

Now... to start a new song... open the template... immediately create a folder and save as a new song.

Now you are ready... you should see the Record Setup Basename now take on the path and name of the new song in its own new folder.

Record for a while... save the session... close it.

To start a new song... repeat the procedure... you should see that the new Basename follows the new path and songname...

Bob, I'm sure you get sick and tired of typing this over and over... FWIW, thank you. The constant reminders do get through... Even though it may not be evident in this case.

by **Bob L** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:23 am

By the way... I just checked and deliberately forced the new session basename to an old session basename to cause the use of the same existing files... and the data was appended... not overwritten... so it does not delete existing data, as far as I can see, except when you tell it to retake.

Can you give me a step by step to cause the data to be deleted and overwritten?

Bob L

by **Bob L** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:00 am

Warning every time you go to overdub in an existing file for every track armed to record would be rather insane, don't you agree.

If you follow my lead, I believe you will see the elegance of the design...

DO NOT enter a Base Filename in the template... then when you open the starting template and SAVE AS a new file in a new folder... the base name will follow the new filename... and you will be using a brand new set of files... simple...

If you enter a Buildmix BaseFilename... IT KEEPS IT... then you will open the possibility of carrying it thru to new SAVE AS spinoff sessions.... ON PURPOSE.

So, try this... start fresh... create whatever session template you want... save it and include something in the name so you recognize it as your starting template. Do Not touch the BaseFilename in the BuildMix dialog or Record Setp dialog... even though I just checked and the Record Basename is not saved in the edl.

Now... to start a new song... open the template... immediately create a folder and save as a new song.

Now you are ready... you should see the Record Setup Basename now take on the path and name of the new song in its own new folder.

Record for a while... save the session... close it.

To start a new song... repeat the procedure... you should see that the new Basename follows the new path and songname... at least it works that way on my rig.

Bob L

by **AudioAstronomer** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:50 am

I just tried the situation mentioned and I have to agree that is rather messed up so to say.

But it's also easily avoidable. So Im on the edge of the fence... Rather saw always warned before overwriting, but then again rather people wouldnt make silly mistakes (people includes me, probably 50% of the mistakes made in the world daily lol)

by **Naturally Digital** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:48 am

Sean McCoy wrote:We even played back each take before moving on, and I didn't discover the problem until I started mixing.

Yeah, that's the scary part about this scenario.

The files were actually being overwritten from the beginning with each new song because the base filename was staying the same due to the repeated use of a setup (or template) EDL and recording into a single folder.

Did you check this? That makes more sense than a retake all issue. I'm going to repeat my procedure, just to test this out... The sad thing about my situation (and possibly yours) is I didn't take the time to click on 'Setup' in the record transport to make sure things were OK. I almost always do that yet on this particular day, under these particular circumstances...

I believe there is a problem with Studio here that needs to be addressed. Shouldn't it be absolutely impossible for Studio to completely overwrite a file without a warning during MT recording, just as it does when doing a Build Mix?

Agreed, and... Yes.

It always seemed to me that SAW would append to files instead, but apparently this isn't true across songs in this situation.

Ya know, thinking back on that day, I *was* aware of what I was doing... The risks I was taking (I've been using SAWStudio long enough to know). I remember thinking; OK, worst case scenario the files will be appended and things should be fine. That's why I assumed it was on a Retake All where I screwed things up.

by **Naturally Digital** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:29 am

Tree Leopard wrote:So if a half-crazy Australian guy can do it then the same can't be that difficult for a certain Brampton Audio Person.

I think I'll go have a look at those files right now Andre! Thanks for the story and the prodding...

HELP! I'm losing takes!

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