SAC and Console 1

[Larry Burger]

I attempted to run Console 1 (Softube) and it did not respond as I expected...

Anyone running C1 with Sac?

[cgrafx]

I attempted to run Console 1 (Softube) and it did not respond as I expected...

Anyone running C1 with Sac?

What are you trying to accomplish. SAC is already a complete virtual console, what purpose would Console 1 serve?

[Larry Burger]

I was hoping to control their plugins with the Console 1 in addition to everything I do with SAC via controllers and mice.

[cgrafx]

I was hoping to control their plugins with the Console 1 in addition to everything I do with SAC via controllers and mice.

Ok... again I'll repeat my question.. SAC is a live audio console. Console 1 is NOT a live audio console, its intended for DAW use.

What purpose would Console 1 serve in a Live Audio context?

Perhaps your meaning Saw Studio rather than SAC?

Also just based on what Console 1 is, its highly unlikely to be zero latency which is going to make it mostly unusable.

[Dave Labrecque]

I attempted to run Console 1 (Softube) and it did not respond as I expected...

Anyone running C1 with Sac?

As I understand it C1 will control parameters of it's own plug-ins plus some parameters of supported DAWs. I pretty sure SAWStudio is not an officially supported DAW. But have you looked into C1's ability to work with standard protocols like MCU or HUI? That's how most control surfaces are interfacing with SAW/SAC these days, as I understand it.

I'm only starting down this road myself and was liking the Console 1 surfaces until I decided they would mostly provide a whole bunch of processing options that I really don't need. Never did get far enough in to know how it might be used to control SAW itself. Actually, I think external DAW control is a relatively new addition to its feature set that I wasn't even aware of till a couple weeks ago. But I could be wrong.

[cgrafx]

As I understand it C1 will control parameters of it's own plug-ins plus some parameters of supported DAWs. I pretty sure SAWStudio is not an officially supported DAW. But have you looked into C1's ability to work with standard protocols like MCU or HUI? That's how most control surfaces are interfacing with SAW/SAC these days, as I understand it.

I'm only starting down this road myself and was liking the Console 1 surfaces until I decided they would mostly provide a whole bunch of processing options that I really don't need. Never did get far enough in to know how it might be used to control SAW itself. Actually, I think external DAW control is a relatively new addition to its feature set that I wasn't even aware of till a couple weeks ago. But I could be wrong.

Quoted from Softube

A totally unique hybrid between hardware and software, Softube Console 1 gives the best of both worlds, and redefines mixing in the DAW-based studio. Quickly switch between your tracks and control EQ, compressor, gate and more. Mix with the sound of the included Solid State Logic SL 4000 E. Or customize your channels to fit your needs — there are over 70 Console 1 ready plug-ins available from Softube and Universal Audio.

Console 1 is not a stand-alone control surface. Its software with a dedicated control surface with some additional hooks added for integration with supported DAWs.

Its not designed to be used as a plugin for a live mixing console like SAC.

And as I asked, I don't understand what purpose this would serve in a SAC environment.

[Naturally Digital]

Also just based on what Console 1 is, its highly unlikely to be zero latency which is going to make it mostly unusable.

Hey Philip,

There's nothing wrong with asking if someone has experience with it and/or trying it out if one already owns the Console 1. I don't see the harm in discussing this.

Anyway, found this on the Softube support page:

• Will there be latency in the system?
  In most use cases, plug-in latency is not a problem as any major DAW offers automatic compensation of plug-in delay. But even for use directly on the incoming signal, the latency of the Console 1 channel is very low ***8212; 4 samples in 44.1 and 48 kHz sample rate, and 0 samples in sample rates above that.

So it seems the way to try it inside of SAC would be to use a samplerate of 88.2 or 96kHz.

Of course since there's no support for Console 1 in SAC then none of the 'DAW integration' features will work.

[mr_es335]

Good day,

Regardless, I would tend to agree with Philip, with regards to the purpose of the use of Console 1 in a Live Audio context.

Seems rather redundant to me...but this is just my opinion.

[Dave Labrecque]

Quoted from Softube



Console 1 is not a stand-alone control surface. Its software with a dedicated control surface with some additional hooks added for integration with supported DAWs.

Its not designed to be used as a plugin for a live mixing console like SAC.

And as I asked, I don't understand what purpose this would serve in a SAC environment.

Not sure whom you're addressing here, Philip. I can't answer for the OP, of course. But, I suppose, if there were some no-latency Softube plug-ins and SAC interface control hooks (by virtue of MCU in this case), there would be that. But you know this.

[cgrafx]

Hey Philip,

There's nothing wrong with asking if someone has experience with it and/or trying it out if one already owns the Console 1. I don't see the harm in discussing this.

Anyway, found this on the Softube support page:

So it seems the way to try it inside of SAC would be to use a samplerate of 88.2 or 96kHz.

Of course since there's no support for Console 1 in SAC then none of the 'DAW integration' features will work.

If this was a SAW Studio discussion that would make sense. I'm not understanding how this would be of any help in a SAC installation.

But lets have an actual discussion.

What are you hoping to accomplish by using this in SAC? How would this help your specific situation.

Is there something about the plugins that would be useful for you in a live console?
How would having a control surface that controls those plugins be better than plugins that you control with a mouse?

I attempted to run Console 1 (Softube) and it did not respond as I expected...

So in fact you have actually answered your own question. you tried Console 1 in SAC and it didn't respond as you expected.

So what did it do? What did you expect it to do? And what did it not do that you wanted it to do?

[Dave Labrecque]

How would having a control surface that controls those plugins be better than plugins that you control with a mouse?

Sounds like you've answered your own question.

The whole control surface premise is that it's superior to using a mouse. Why else would anyone use a control surface? :confused:

Unless you mean to focus on the plug-ins themselves. In that case, it's in the ear of the beholder, of course.

[cgrafx]

Sounds like you've answered your own question.

The whole control surface premise is that it's superior to using a mouse. Why else would anyone use a control surface? :confused:

Unless you mean to focus on the plug-ins themselves. In that case, it's in the ear of the beholder, of course.

actually no I haven’t. A control surface is not always a better interface, and in the case of plugins which have completely different UIs, a physical control surface can be a detiment rather than an asset, as the knobs will most likely never be the same set or function.

physical control surfaces make a lot sense and are useful in places where there is a uniform/consistent pairing of form to function (i.e., faders, mutes, solos, pan, gain, transport controls, etc.,)

in the context we are discussing here, how would a randomly changing set of knobs help or be more efficient when running a live mixing desk. remember we are not talking about a DAW.

[Dave Labrecque]

in the context we are discussing here, how would a randomly changing set of knobs help or be more efficient when running a live mixing desk.

More efficient than what? A mouse? Presumably whoever designs or buys controls surfaces think there's utility in their existence. I'm sure you can see that there is some operational overlap between live and post mixing workflows.

Presumably, said knobs would help in a live setting in the same way they help in the studio: by giving better/faster/more-intuitive manual control than a mouse. I'm sure you can imagine a setting/situation where the C1 would be more desirable than a mouse for certain tasks. That would be the answer to your question.

I'm certainly not saying it would always be superior to a mouse in live sound. But you seem to be saying a mouse would always be superior to the C1, which I'm not understanding. Seems like an odd generalization.

But the C1 doesn't even supplant a mouse. You can use both, right? You sound like you're suggesting an either/or paradigm.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

[Naturally Digital]

I was hoping to control their plugins with the Console 1 in addition to everything I do with SAC via controllers and mice.

I don't have a C1 so I have no experience to offer. This product is on my radar so I am curious if it works in SAW/SAC.

What happened when you tried your Console 1 inside SAC?

Do you have it working in SAWStudio?

Which audio applications are you used to using with your C1?

[cgrafx]

More efficient than what? A mouse? Presumably whoever designs or buys controls surfaces think there's utility in their existence. I'm sure you can see that there is some operational overlap between live and post mixing workflows.

Presumably, said knobs would help in a live setting in the same way they help in the studio: by giving better/faster/more-intuitive manual control than a mouse. I'm sure you can imagine a setting/situation where the C1 would be more desirable than a mouse for certain tasks. That would be the answer to your question.

I'm certainly not saying it would always be superior to a mouse in live sound. But you seem to be saying a mouse would always be superior to the C1, which I'm not understanding. Seems like an odd generalization.

But the C1 doesn't even supplant a mouse. You can use both, right? You sound like you're suggesting an either/or paradigm.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

No I'm suggesting that the C1 is at best a far 2nd to a mouse for live use. Again we are not talking about control surfaces in general, but specifically a control surface designed to control plugin settings. I use a fader pack with SAC (Fader, mute, solo, pan) because it provides a much better interface specifically where its needed (tactile control of stuff that matters when your driving a console live). But how much time is going to be spent tweaking plugin settings live, and how would a random set of knobs that are not consistent from plug-in to plug-in improve that situation.

We are also not talking about post mixing because you don't do that in SAC.

If we change the discussion to SAW Studio, than that is a completely different application and the C1 may or may not be more useful, but it at least makes sense in that context where manipulating plugin settings may be a more prominent task.

[Dave Labrecque]

No I'm suggesting that the C1 is at best a far 2nd to a mouse for live use. Again we are not talking about control surfaces in general, but specifically a control surface designed to control plugin settings. I use a fader pack with SAC (Fader, mute, solo, pan) because it provides a much better interface specifically where its needed (tactile control of stuff that matters when your driving a console live). But how much time is going to be spent tweaking plugin settings live, and how would a random set of knobs that are not consistent from plug-in to plug-in improve that situation.

We are also not talking about post mixing because you don't do that in SAC.

If we change the discussion to SAW Studio, than that is a completely different application and the C1 may or may not be more useful, but it at least makes sense in that context where manipulating plugin settings may be a more prominent task.

Again, why the C1 vs. mouse approach? Why not enjoy the best of both?

Are you saying you simply don't see a scenario where the C1 would be at all useful live? What if there were specific Softube plugs that the user liked and was familiar with in terms of C1 control of them? Would not that be a viable scenario for it's use alongside a mouse?

[cgrafx]

Again, why the C1 vs. mouse approach? Why not enjoy the best of both?

Are you saying you simply don't see a scenario where the C1 would be at all useful live? What if there were specific Softube plugs that the user liked and was familiar with in terms of C1 control of them? Would not that be a viable scenario for it's use alongside a mouse?

I'm not understanding what circumstance would have somebody furiously tweaking a plugin during a live show where they would need a physical knob to do that.

I'm not saying its not possible, its just not something most live sound engineers would find themselves doing.

This is also why I asked Larry the original question "What was he hoping to accomplish". Maybe he is one of the rare people/circumstances were this would be more efficient.

[Naturally Digital]

If we change the discussion to SAW Studio, than that is a completely different application and the C1 may or may not be more useful, but it at least makes sense in that context where manipulating plugin settings may be a more prominent task.

I refuse to engage in these debates. It's a time-suck and can get frustrating for anyone other than the ones 'who enjoy debating or arguing' which I do not.

One only needs to lurk here to know there are many different uses for SAC and some users use it in their studios every day. I don't try to second guess what uses one may have for these tools.

Regardless of anyone's 'opinions' about the OP's use case, I see no reason to shoot down the idea before the discussion even gets off the ground. It's a destructive or combative approach instead of a constructive approach. It really causes me to want to just stay lurking and not bother contributing. It feels too much like dealing with forum police and it's what's wrong with so many internet forums.

I mean this in the most helpful way, but this wasn't feeling like a discussion, it was feeling more like an inquisition.

If the discussion was allowed to unfold in a friendly, non-combative nature I'm sure the answers to these questions would eventually emerge. Perhaps the OP might realize this isn't a good combo etc. Arguing is just a waste of energy to me.

OK. I've said my piece. I'll be quiet now.

[cgrafx]

I refuse to engage in these debates. It's a time-suck and can get frustrating for anyone other than the ones 'who enjoy debating or arguing' which I do not.

One only needs to lurk here to know there are many different uses for SAC and some users use it in their studios every day. I don't try to second guess what uses one may have for these tools.

Regardless of anyone's 'opinions' about the OP's use case, I see no reason to shoot down the idea before the discussion even gets off the ground. It's a destructive or combative approach instead of a constructive approach. It really causes me to want to just stay lurking and not bother contributing. It feels too much like dealing with forum police and it's what's wrong with so many internet forums.

I mean this in the most helpful way, but this wasn't feeling like a discussion, it was feeling more like an inquisition.

If the discussion was allowed to unfold in a friendly, non-combative nature I'm sure the answers to these questions would eventually emerge. Perhaps the OP might realize this isn't a good combo etc. Arguing is just a waste of energy to me.

OK. I've said my piece. I'll be quiet now.

Nothing was shot down or combative. The original question stands, what problems did he encounter and what didn't work the way he expected.

Additionally what was the intended use of the tool. Console 1 is specifically designed for use in a DAW, using it in SAC would be outside the expected usage and by design likely prone to problems, so the question was asked and STILL has not been answered.

What did the original user hope to achieve using this specific product with SAC.

Its not so far removed from I had this large screwdriver with a big handle that seemed like I could also use it as a Hammer but it didn't work very well and was wondering if anybody else used this screwdriver as a hammer before and did you get better results.

Nobody is challenging the use of SAC in the studio. As a matter of fact you only have to review my posts to see that I am a big proponent of exactly that. I use SAC as the front end to SAW Studio and its an awesome combination, but it is STILL functionally a live sound application.

Adding Console 1 to SAC is putting it into the wrong end of the workflow.

SAC is not part of the the mix-down process. You do that in SAW.

Plugins are not generally used in SAC when your recording, other than sweetening the foldback for the talent or using a VST instrument. The plugins go into the mix in SAW and this is where C1 would get used.

I'm not saying you can't pre-load plugins/effects and print them to your recording, but there had better be a good reason to do that as it will severely limit what you can do with the recording in post.

Best practices are generally
- capture clean unaltered audio
- mix/master in post

[Reujonik]

I,ve actually got a large screwdriver that works really well as a blunt instrument.