Looking for SAC Recommendations

[John F]

Sorry for the long post here, but I'd love some advice from you SAC experts out there. I'm the chief audio tech for a large-ish church in Mid-Missouri (USA). We have a 600-seat auditorium, run three Sunday services, and do a live stream (separate mix) for one of them. We currently use a Roland M-5000 console with the Roland REAC digital snakes and M-48 in-ear monitors. Most of our system is 10 years old and starting to become a little flaky. Roland ditched their pro audio division some years ago, so parts and service are no longer available. I've been an ardent SAW user since the mid 90's, so am naturally looking at SAC for a replacement system. However, I've never actually built a large digital sound system, and it may be an uphill battle convincing the powers-that-be to go with SAC vs a major console system like Allen & Heath or Yamaha. Our needs are:

64 inputs, either mic or line
6 or so outputs to various speaker systems around the building, including the sanctuary
A completely separate mixing system for the live stream
in-ear monitor capabilities for up to 20 musicians (our usual Sunday is about 10, but we want the capability for more for big services on Easter or Christmas)

It seems like SAC could handle all of this with ease. So here are my questions, at least at this point:

1. Is it better for the sake of redundancy to get, say, 8 interface units of 8 channels each? Or maybe 2 at 32 channels each? We're not a professional recording studio, so we don't need the very best sound quality, but we do want it to be good. I've been reading on this forum that RME seems to come highly recommended, as does Behringer. Any other brands you'd like to suggest? I'd rather avoid Behringer, as my local music store can't get them anymore, and I'd like to give him some of this business.

2. What is the best way to handle the in-ear monitors? I can't really imagine having a whole bank of laptops backstage. Do you just have a few and let people stand in line to adjust their mix? Or do you have a Monitor Engineer?

3. We work with several volunteers for running sound, both FOH and Streaming audio. How is SAC for easy teachability, especially for people who are used to running big-name consoles? I feel like I'll catch on to it right away, but then I've been using SAWStudio for years.

4. I've been working my way through (and enjoying) Martin's "Make Your Own Sound" YouTube series. For those of you who have watched that, is he right on with his recommendations? Some of his videos are three years old - has anything changed drastically in that time?

5. Any other comments of things I should be considering? Anyone in the midwest with a similar setup that wouldn't mind a visit?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this!

[mr_es335]

John,

Though I do not consider myself as being in any way qualified to over any substantial advice here, I thought it still appropriate to at leave to provide you with "my 2 cents worth". So here goes...

A1: 64 inputs, either mic or line...and so on...
R1: SAC can handle this...and more!

Q1: Is it better for the sake of redundancy to get, say, 8 interface units of 8 channels each?
R1: There are a number of alternatives out there - depending, of curse, entirely on cost. If at all possible, stick the ADA8200's. None of the others are really going to sound all that much better.

Q2: What is the best way to handle the in-ear monitors?
R2: Not really a question of my pervue - someone else will need to chime-in here.

Q3: We work with several volunteers for running sound, both FOH and Streaming audio. How is SAC for easy teach-ability, especially for people who are used to running big-name consoles? I feel like I'll catch on to it right away, but then I've been using SAWStudio for years.
R3: This is probably your biggest hurdle. For the "die-hards" I show them some videos of others using SAC in-tandem with controllers - and doing so seems to relax them a bit. I also shown them some videos and/or schematics of what is actually running these "big-name consoles" - namely a computer and a power supply. For neophytes, I have never had any issues of concern.

Q4: I've been working my way through (and enjoying) Martin's "Sound on Sound" YouTube series. For those of you who have watched that, is he right on with his recommendations? Some of his videos are three years old - has anything changed drastically in that time?
R4: Martin's videos are absolutely excellent and Martin himself is a very knowledgeable fellow. Though the videos might be considered "dated", "Age cannot wither them, nor custom stale their infinite variety!"

Q5. Any other comments of things I should be considering? Anyone in the midwest with a similar setup that wouldn't mind a visit?
R5: Use the LTSC version of Windows 10, perform the necessary tweaks - first Bob's then Martin's - I do have a combined listing of these...get the system built properly, and you really should be "good-to-go!"

Hope this helps?

PS: Just one more "thing" if you are using SAW as well, these are an absolutely unbeatable pair. What I have doing lately is assisting other "globally" in using SAC as the front-end" and SAW as the "back-end" - or is the other way around - in how to automate most of the stuff that is required for a show. All that is required then - without too many serious hiccups, is for the FOH person is to "tap the space-bar" every now-and-then! We can discuss this on the phone sometime if you prefer? Just send me you number...[Click_Me]

[cgrafx]

1st thing is going to be start with the budget. What kind of money do you have to work with as that will have an impact on both what you purchase and how everything is configured.

SAC is an incredibly pliable/configurable tool that could work very well for your needs, but will require significant effort in both design and education for it to be effective.

Since your eliminating Behringer from the hardware options then your immediately taking a jump up in cost for the interfaces, but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

I would definitely consider MOTU.

You could go the stage box route or mic preamp route. The mic preamp route will give you more output mixes as they are a 8in x 8out interfaces where the stage boxes are 16in x 8out meaning in a 64 channel system if you want more than 32 outs you'll need to specifically purchase another interface for the extra outputs.

So for example

Audio Interfaces
8x Motu 8M or 8Pre-ES you would give you 64in x 64out

Stage Boxes
4 Stage-B16 would give you 64in x 32out
1 x 24Ao would add 24 additional outputs

The nice thing with the MOTU interfaces is the AVB connectivity. meaning you could easily place additional interfaces in different locations and connect them with ethernet cable, rather than running audio throughout the building.

There is a lot of detail missing from this post meaning it is only a very crude list of equipment and would require more hardware in addition to the computer to be functional.

[Bob L]

John... feel free to give me a call and I'd be glad to offer input to your system design and questions. Phone info is on the website Contact page.

Bob L

[TomyN]

Nowerdays I'd suggest a Dante based system, which will add even more flexibility. The Dante PCI Card can handle 128 In and 128 Out channels.

[cgrafx]

Nowerdays I'd suggest a Dante based system, which will add even more flexibility. The Dante PCI Card can handle 128 In and 128 Out channels.

the problem I had with the dante platform was the lack of 1U 8in x 8out interfaces, which is how i ended up with MOTU.

[TomyN]

I prefer 16 In / 8 out Units ( no need for 16 outs) in 2 HE :-)

[cgrafx]

I prefer 16 In / 8 out Units ( no need for 16 outs) in 2 HE :-)

until you want more than a couple stereo in ear mixes, they eat up outputs fast.

[John F]

until you want more than a couple stereo in ear mixes, they eat up outputs fast.

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions so far - thanks! As we typically have 10 musicians on stage with stereo IEMs, and want the capability for 15-20, I think the more outputs I have the better!

[mr_es335]

John,

Talk to Bob...if you have not already!! [Click_Me]

[bcorkery]

If you haven't seen the Michel Legrand video, it's worth checking out.
Especially the part where Bob explains the Behringer ADA's.
https://www.rmllabs.com/MainSite/sac-video.html

[cgrafx]

From the 1st post in this thread.....

I'd rather avoid Behringer, as my local music store can't get them anymore, and I'd like to give him some of this business

[bcorkery]

From the 1st post in this thread.....

I'd rather avoid Behringer, as my local music store can't get them anymore, and I'd like to give him some of this business

Sorry, Philip. I missed that.

[John F]

No need for apologies. Although I'd rather avoid Behringer, EVERYTHING is on the table at this point in my research! I did call Bob, and he was very helpful - thank you Bob!

[mr_es335]

John,

I know the whole Behringer debacle is - to some, a somewhat sensitive subject.

This being said, the Behringer's work, have a good track record, and are relatively inexpensive when compared with others.

So, my suggestion is, get the Behringer's... [Sweetwater]

[John F]

John,
console
I know the whole Behringer debacle is - to some, a somewhat sensitive subject.

This being said, the Behringer's work, have a good track record, and are relatively inexpensive when compared with others.

So, my suggestion is, get the Behringer's... [Sweetwater]

I totally understand! The only reason I want to avoid Behringer is that my local music store, who has been very good to us in the past, will be disappointed to miss out on a $50,000 console sale! I'd hate to throw salt on the wound by buying what we do use from Sweetwater. But I'll certainly keep them in mind....

[Angie]

I totally understand! The only reason I want to avoid Behringer is that my local music store, who has been very good to us in the past, will be disappointed to miss out on a $50,000 console sale! I'd hate to throw salt on the wound by buying what we do use from Sweetwater. But I'll certainly keep them in mind....

The Focusrite Octopre Dynamic is a good alternative to the Behringer. There is a significate price difference, though. Of course, if you are going the ADAT route, you can mix and match pre/converters. The last church install with SAC I did, there were 24 channels of Octopre for mics inputs and all outputs and an old Tascam MX-2424 for lines and additional mic pres.

[John F]

The Focusrite Octopre Dynamic is a good alternative to the Behringer. There is a significate price difference, though. Of course, if you are going the ADAT route, you can mix and match pre/converters. The last church install with SAC I did, there were 24 channels of Octopre for mics inputs and all outputs and an old Tascam MX-2424 for lines and additional mic pres.

Thank you, Angie. This brings up a good point - could anyone point me towards a good-sized church that's using SAC for FOH? I'd love the opportunity to talk with them.

John Francis
Rolla, MO