Good day,
Well the day has finally arrived...and this posting is to shed some light on the serious downsides of JUCE.
Two of the primary plug-in developers that I currently use namely, Valhalla and Overloud, both use JUCE for their plug-in development.
So, go to the "'net" and ask the question, "JUCE and VST2" and see what you get. The results are not great and possibly explain why I am experiencing certain issues that I with the software developed under this "platform". It would appear that due to Steinberg's deprecation of VST2, JUCE - at least for the time being, is placing VST2's "in a wrapper" of some sort. Whatever this wrapper is, this wrapper-usage is producing some some rather negative results in the interim.
Now, using the plugin "as is" does not appear to produce any apparent irregularities...but use "Scenes" - and sadly, "...all hell breaks loose!" For example, no preset name updates, plug-in stalls,and so on. As noted in a previous posting, talking with the developers gets you absolutely nowhere. "Passing the buck..." sadly comes to mind here.
As to why such situations are occurring I am sadly - unable to adequately explain. Not being "a real programmer" prohibits me from ascertaining the specifics. All that I can say is that prior to JUCE - all is OK...post JUCE - and "mayhem!!"
So, for us SAC/SAW users, I guess finding out what "platform" the developers are using may be wise. Some are quick to take your money, but post purchase, it can really "suck!"
PS: From what I have been able to ascertain as well, VST3 appears to mostly applicable to VSTi's and automation capabilities - but again, I may be completely "out to lunch" here.
Update: 08/30/23!!
As the result of an interesting and somewhat lengthy conversation today...I am abandoning "JUCE" - unless such happens to be the substance that comes in a bottle!
OT: JUCE!
Moderator: Bob L
Re: OT: JUCE!
How were you able to find this information?mr_es335 wrote:
Two of the primary plug-in developers that I currently use namely, Valhalla and Overloud, both use JUCE for their plug-in development.
I think it would be helpful to know what each company is using before deciding to purchase a plugin.
Angie Dickinson Mickle
The Studio
http://www.avocadoproductions.com/zephy ... ording.htm
Chris' tribute site
http://www.micklesong.com
The Studio
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Chris' tribute site
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Re: OT: JUCE!
Angie,
I will endeavour to answer your question,...
Q: How were you able to find this information?
A: Navigate to https://juce.com/
* Bottom of page, see "Companies Using JUCE"
* Valhalla DSP IS listed, but NOT Overloud.
In those situations where the specific company is NOT listed, then contacting that developer and asking them if they use JUCE and if so...
1) To what extent do they employ JUCE?
2) What version of JUCE are they employing?
* This is what I had to do with Overloud.
Mirax also employs JUCE v7 - and as such, vstPlayer is exhibiting the very same anomalies as with Valhalla and TH-U!
* "Bummer, man!" That is over $400.00 down the drain!
You stated, "I think it would be helpful to know what each company is using before deciding to purchase a plugin." ... and you are absolutely correct here!!
* As a point-of-interest, I have yet to see SAW listed as a potential DAW for many of the plug-in offerings! Why is this?
Interestingly, JUCE 5 did not appear to exhibit any of the anomalies that I am presently experiencing with v7.
Hope this helps?
I will endeavour to answer your question,...
Q: How were you able to find this information?
A: Navigate to https://juce.com/
* Bottom of page, see "Companies Using JUCE"
* Valhalla DSP IS listed, but NOT Overloud.
In those situations where the specific company is NOT listed, then contacting that developer and asking them if they use JUCE and if so...
1) To what extent do they employ JUCE?
2) What version of JUCE are they employing?
* This is what I had to do with Overloud.
Mirax also employs JUCE v7 - and as such, vstPlayer is exhibiting the very same anomalies as with Valhalla and TH-U!
* "Bummer, man!" That is over $400.00 down the drain!
You stated, "I think it would be helpful to know what each company is using before deciding to purchase a plugin." ... and you are absolutely correct here!!
* As a point-of-interest, I have yet to see SAW listed as a potential DAW for many of the plug-in offerings! Why is this?
Interestingly, JUCE 5 did not appear to exhibit any of the anomalies that I am presently experiencing with v7.
Hope this helps?
Re: OT: JUCE!
Good day,
I just completed testing on fifteen [15] plug-ins, a) seven of which were "developed" with JUCE, and, b) eight that were not.
The sole objective of this test was to confirm "specific anomalies" that occur "primarily" in SAC, and in particular, via the employment of "Scenes".
The test proved conclusively that those plug-ins that DID employ JUCE displayed the very same anomalies, whilst those plug-ins that DID NOT employ JUCE functioned as expected.
And though SAW does NOT employ "scenes", I would assume that since SAC and SAW are "built" on the same core "platform" - if I may use that term, then what occurs in SAC might also occur in SAW.
Someone on the Forum asked the question, "How were you able to find this information?" The answer, by contacting the developer and ask them if they employ JUCE? ...that is, as they say, "That!"
* In my personal dialog with non-JUCE'd developers, such very often cited the phrase "in house" - and thus, the sole reason for their non-use of JUCE. I find this point both interesting and significant!
What concerns me at this present time is that JUCE may become that platform that will be employed by many of the current plug-in developers...especially with regards to VST3 development...and even "CLAP"...or..."CLever Audio Plug-in API".
I hope that some will find this information to be of some practicable use?
PS: I did create a video of the entire testing process which I could make available for those that are interested. So, let me know!!
I just completed testing on fifteen [15] plug-ins, a) seven of which were "developed" with JUCE, and, b) eight that were not.
The sole objective of this test was to confirm "specific anomalies" that occur "primarily" in SAC, and in particular, via the employment of "Scenes".
The test proved conclusively that those plug-ins that DID employ JUCE displayed the very same anomalies, whilst those plug-ins that DID NOT employ JUCE functioned as expected.
And though SAW does NOT employ "scenes", I would assume that since SAC and SAW are "built" on the same core "platform" - if I may use that term, then what occurs in SAC might also occur in SAW.
Someone on the Forum asked the question, "How were you able to find this information?" The answer, by contacting the developer and ask them if they employ JUCE? ...that is, as they say, "That!"
* In my personal dialog with non-JUCE'd developers, such very often cited the phrase "in house" - and thus, the sole reason for their non-use of JUCE. I find this point both interesting and significant!
What concerns me at this present time is that JUCE may become that platform that will be employed by many of the current plug-in developers...especially with regards to VST3 development...and even "CLAP"...or..."CLever Audio Plug-in API".
I hope that some will find this information to be of some practicable use?
PS: I did create a video of the entire testing process which I could make available for those that are interested. So, let me know!!
-
operationwhat
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Re: OT: JUCE!
operationwhat,
Okay! A few things....
1) To answer the first part of your question, "Have you ever used XLUTOP's 'Chainer' for hosting plugins?" ...answer, "Yes!"
2) ...and the second, "...to host problematic plug-ins?" ...answer "No!"
* This...to me... would be akin to placing a band-aide over an infectious wound!!
3) At present "Chainer" is only being provided in 32-bit!!
4) I have tried other such hosts, and discovered that I really did NOT have a need for such.
* I discovered that my plug-in requirements are minimal, an ampsim, a chorus, and a reverb...but all plug-ins must be top quality - to function properly within the top-quality hosting applications!
Regardless, operationwhat, thanks for the suggestion! Appreciated!
Okay! A few things....
1) To answer the first part of your question, "Have you ever used XLUTOP's 'Chainer' for hosting plugins?" ...answer, "Yes!"
2) ...and the second, "...to host problematic plug-ins?" ...answer "No!"
* This...to me... would be akin to placing a band-aide over an infectious wound!!
3) At present "Chainer" is only being provided in 32-bit!!
4) I have tried other such hosts, and discovered that I really did NOT have a need for such.
* I discovered that my plug-in requirements are minimal, an ampsim, a chorus, and a reverb...but all plug-ins must be top quality - to function properly within the top-quality hosting applications!
Regardless, operationwhat, thanks for the suggestion! Appreciated!
-
operationwhat
- Member
- Posts: 472
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Re: OT: JUCE!
Dear,
the reason I used xlutop was to use plugins that don't work with SAC or in SAC....
And it helped me use all the plugins that you would not dare to use inside SAC.
Also u can make it 64bit...just use a JBridge.
The same way I use NeuralDSP plugins inside SAC and McDSP TapeHead
the reason I used xlutop was to use plugins that don't work with SAC or in SAC....
And it helped me use all the plugins that you would not dare to use inside SAC.
Also u can make it 64bit...just use a JBridge.
The same way I use NeuralDSP plugins inside SAC and McDSP TapeHead
Re: OT: JUCE!
operationwhat,
I am well familiar with "bridgers" and, as with plug-in hosts, I see no need for the use of such.
In all honesty...at least according to me...if a plug-in developer cannot make a plug-in that "works"...then I personally have no interest whatsoever in such plug-ins.
Take the company "FabFilter" as an example. Though they had heard of SAC, they had not tried SAC...but did so...and were very pleased with what they saw.
* This being said, profits are driven by need, and MAC's still take precedence over PC's for plug-in development.
Also, maybe in a studio environment, employing what I would refer to as "buggy plug-ins", may be appropriate, but for live usage...I treat such plug-in deployment as a complete-and-utter, "No...No!"
* Such has GOT to work natively...or not at all!!
I do hope that this makes sense?
PS: I ask that attention is always paid to "emphasis" - to ensure that what I AM saying is being understood properly and in the proper context [...at least...I do hope so!!]
I am well familiar with "bridgers" and, as with plug-in hosts, I see no need for the use of such.
In all honesty...at least according to me...if a plug-in developer cannot make a plug-in that "works"...then I personally have no interest whatsoever in such plug-ins.
Take the company "FabFilter" as an example. Though they had heard of SAC, they had not tried SAC...but did so...and were very pleased with what they saw.
* This being said, profits are driven by need, and MAC's still take precedence over PC's for plug-in development.
Also, maybe in a studio environment, employing what I would refer to as "buggy plug-ins", may be appropriate, but for live usage...I treat such plug-in deployment as a complete-and-utter, "No...No!"
* Such has GOT to work natively...or not at all!!
I do hope that this makes sense?
PS: I ask that attention is always paid to "emphasis" - to ensure that what I AM saying is being understood properly and in the proper context [...at least...I do hope so!!]
Re: OT: JUCE!
So one of the things that should be considered, Juce is an open source library. Meaning it could be patched to fix the issue in SAC/SAW.
That would be the most useful approach with the added benefit that it would potentially fix all of the plug-ins utilizing the library.
Perhaps it would be useful to reach out to the Juce development community and see if its possible to find somebody that would be interested in fixing the bug.
That would be the most useful approach with the added benefit that it would potentially fix all of the plug-ins utilizing the library.
Perhaps it would be useful to reach out to the Juce development community and see if its possible to find somebody that would be interested in fixing the bug.
---------------------------------------
Philip G.
Philip G.
Re: OT: JUCE!
Philip,
You stated, "Juce is an open source library. Meaning it could be patched to fix the issue in SAC/SAW..." ..."True"...but only at the behest or interest of the original developer. Thus, if the original developer has no interest in pursuing the matter, the no further steps would be taken!
The following is typical of that which I have received for those whom i have reached out to...six in all...
"Juce is VERY MUCH an industry standard at this point. My guess is that most plugin developers are using it. SAC, on the other hand, is a product that I've only heard of one customer using, that is you. If the SAC developer is insisting that the issue is not his, but is rather a Juce issue, I would ask why Juce plugins successfully run in Pro Tools, Logic, Live, Cubase, FL Studio, Studio One, Bitwig, Reaper, Reason, Garage Band, etc. In general, I would suggest moving on to a modern DAW that is being actively developed. A lot of Windows users that work 'closer to the metal' are very happy with Reaper, which is a $60 investment, and is free to try out."[Emphasis mine]
Of the six, only one had ever heard of SAC...or SAW for that matter. All six said that I should consider Reaper as an alternative! Very disappointing indeed
That would be the most useful approach with the added benefit that it would potentially fix all of the plug-ins utilizing the library.
You then stated, "Perhaps it would be useful to reach out to the Juce development community and see if its possible to find somebody that would be interested in fixing the bug." Good suggestion...thanks for this. I will contact two of the developers whom I have worked closely with and ask them if this might be a possible solution to the "problem". I will keep you posted as to what their response is.
You stated, "Juce is an open source library. Meaning it could be patched to fix the issue in SAC/SAW..." ..."True"...but only at the behest or interest of the original developer. Thus, if the original developer has no interest in pursuing the matter, the no further steps would be taken!
The following is typical of that which I have received for those whom i have reached out to...six in all...
"Juce is VERY MUCH an industry standard at this point. My guess is that most plugin developers are using it. SAC, on the other hand, is a product that I've only heard of one customer using, that is you. If the SAC developer is insisting that the issue is not his, but is rather a Juce issue, I would ask why Juce plugins successfully run in Pro Tools, Logic, Live, Cubase, FL Studio, Studio One, Bitwig, Reaper, Reason, Garage Band, etc. In general, I would suggest moving on to a modern DAW that is being actively developed. A lot of Windows users that work 'closer to the metal' are very happy with Reaper, which is a $60 investment, and is free to try out."[Emphasis mine]
Of the six, only one had ever heard of SAC...or SAW for that matter. All six said that I should consider Reaper as an alternative! Very disappointing indeed
That would be the most useful approach with the added benefit that it would potentially fix all of the plug-ins utilizing the library.
You then stated, "Perhaps it would be useful to reach out to the Juce development community and see if its possible to find somebody that would be interested in fixing the bug." Good suggestion...thanks for this. I will contact two of the developers whom I have worked closely with and ask them if this might be a possible solution to the "problem". I will keep you posted as to what their response is.
Re: OT: JUCE!
Open source means its not dependent on the original developer.mr_es335 wrote:Philip,
You stated, "Juce is an open source library. Meaning it could be patched to fix the issue in SAC/SAW..." ..."True"...but only at the behest or interest of the original developer. Thus, if the original developer has no interest in pursuing the matter, the no further steps would be taken!
The following is typical of that which I have received for those whom i have reached out to...six in all...
"Juce is VERY MUCH an industry standard at this point. My guess is that most plugin developers are using it. SAC, on the other hand, is a product that I***8217;ve only heard of one customer using, that is you. If the SAC developer is insisting that the issue is not his, but is rather a Juce issue, I would ask why Juce plugins successfully run in Pro Tools, Logic, Live, Cubase, FL Studio, Studio One, Bitwig, Reaper, Reason, Garage Band, etc. In general, I would suggest moving on to a modern DAW that is being actively developed. A lot of Windows users that work ***8220;closer to the metal***8221; are very happy with Reaper, which is a $60 investment, and is free to try out."[Emphasis mine]
Of the six, only one had ever heard of SAC...or SAW for that matter. All six said that I should consider Reaper as an alternative! Very disappointing indeed
That would be the most useful approach with the added benefit that it would potentially fix all of the plug-ins utilizing the library.
You then stated, "Perhaps it would be useful to reach out to the Juce development community and see if its possible to find somebody that would be interested in fixing the bug." Good suggestion...thanks for this. I will contact two of the developers whom I have worked closely with and ask them if this might be a possible solution to the "problem". I will keep you posted as to what their response is.
Just have to find somebody interested in contributing. As for the brush off from the original developer, that is of coarse disappointing and also ignorant as reaper is not even a remote replacement for SAC (which is primarily where the bug is occurring - since Scenes don't exist in Saw Studio)
---------------------------------------
Philip G.
Philip G.
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Dave Labrecque
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Re: OT: JUCE!
What kinds of bugs are we talking about?
Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
Becket, Massachusetts
Becket, Massachusetts
Re: OT: JUCE!
Good day,
MMP [Link]: Can you please provide detailed info as to how to recreate this anomaly?
UpTilDawn [Link]: Can you please do the same?
In particular, what is the "trigger" that causes this anomaly to occur?
* For example, in SAC, it is when a scene is updated that this anomaly occurs.
* I have created a 9 minute video that clearly displays this anomaly...sadly, which I am NOT allowed to present.
MMP [Link]: Can you please provide detailed info as to how to recreate this anomaly?
UpTilDawn [Link]: Can you please do the same?
In particular, what is the "trigger" that causes this anomaly to occur?
* For example, in SAC, it is when a scene is updated that this anomaly occurs.
* I have created a 9 minute video that clearly displays this anomaly...sadly, which I am NOT allowed to present.
Re: OT: JUCE!
Random freezes in SAWStudio64. Mostly with a few plugins. Izotope***8217;s Insight2 freezes a lot. but, other Juce based plugins are fine. Not sure what the issue is, but it seems to happen more often as the session has been open for a long time, so I would guess some kind of memory leak. Restarting the session seems to reset the countdown clock to new freezes.
Studio mole and synthesizer addict.
Re: OT: JUCE!
Issues for me have been limited to SAW, since I rarely need to use fx in SAC in the studio (and why I haven't posted this in the SAC forum before).
But that being said, freezes probably occur after long sessions, as MMP observed, except that my issues are mostly with Sonible fx.
The issues with the graphic controls not displaying when i open a plugin in SAW maybe happen from having a session open for a long time, as above, but I'm not sure, since I often will leave a session open overnight and it maybe just "feels" to me like it's new when I start working.
"No display" does seem to be more random than that, however. But I couldn't begin to guess what the "trigger" is for this.
Hot patching/removing more recently released plugins has become an issue for me in SAW64 as well.
I compensate, first by taking snapshots and saving sessions far more frequently than I ever needed to before and secondly, by stopping playback before patching/removing almost all plugins now.
I've also begun to experience random crashes in SAW64 when placing certain of the most recent plugins I've purchased after SAW Levelizer - most probably analyzer plugins like Sonible True Level (is there a pattern here, I wonder?), or Voxengo Span (IIRC). SAW doesn't seem to like plugins to be placed after the Levelizer - even if I only engage them long enough to check levels, etc.
But it's the combination of affects that has left me with the feeling that my pc is just not up to the demand of the newer fx and so, have not even considered this JUCE possibility as a cause.
But that being said, freezes probably occur after long sessions, as MMP observed, except that my issues are mostly with Sonible fx.
The issues with the graphic controls not displaying when i open a plugin in SAW maybe happen from having a session open for a long time, as above, but I'm not sure, since I often will leave a session open overnight and it maybe just "feels" to me like it's new when I start working.
"No display" does seem to be more random than that, however. But I couldn't begin to guess what the "trigger" is for this.
Hot patching/removing more recently released plugins has become an issue for me in SAW64 as well.
I compensate, first by taking snapshots and saving sessions far more frequently than I ever needed to before and secondly, by stopping playback before patching/removing almost all plugins now.
I've also begun to experience random crashes in SAW64 when placing certain of the most recent plugins I've purchased after SAW Levelizer - most probably analyzer plugins like Sonible True Level (is there a pattern here, I wonder?), or Voxengo Span (IIRC). SAW doesn't seem to like plugins to be placed after the Levelizer - even if I only engage them long enough to check levels, etc.
But it's the combination of affects that has left me with the feeling that my pc is just not up to the demand of the newer fx and so, have not even considered this JUCE possibility as a cause.
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Dave Labrecque
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Re: OT: JUCE!
I know I have buffer-size-changing issues with some plugins following the Levelizer when it's doing one of its buffer-size-changing things (like normalizing and/or peak limiting). Could that be the thing, here? A test would be to not use those features and just do some simple compression or something with the Levelizer. Of course, if you're like me, that won't be much help because I'm almost always using the Levelizer exclusively for exactly those functions.UpTilDawn wrote:I've also begun to experience random crashes in SAW64 when placing certain of the most recent plugins I've purchased after SAW Levelizer - most probably analyzer plugins like Sonible True Level (is there a pattern here, I wonder?), or Voxengo Span (IIRC). SAW doesn't seem to like plugins to be placed after the Levelizer - even if I only engage them long enough to check levels, etc.
Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
Becket, Massachusetts
Becket, Massachusetts
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Dave Labrecque
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Re: OT: JUCE!
Thanks. And what do you mean by "plug-in stalls"?mr_es335 wrote:Dave,
See first post...paragraph four...
Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
Becket, Massachusetts
Becket, Massachusetts
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Dave Labrecque
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Re: OT: JUCE!
Really? How could that be? I don't believe you.mr_es335 wrote:
* I have created a 9 minute video that clearly displays this anomaly...sadly, which I am NOT allowed to present.
Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
Becket, Massachusetts
Becket, Massachusetts
Re: OT: JUCE!
You're probably right about that. I just haven't taken much time to investigate. I'll check it out and report back.Dave Labrecque wrote:I know I have buffer-size-changing issues with some plugins following the Levelizer when it's doing one of its buffer-size-changing things (like normalizing and/or peak limiting). Could that be the thing, here? A test would be to not use those features and just do some simple compression or something with the Levelizer. Of course, if you're like me, that won't be much help because I'm almost always using the Levelizer exclusively for exactly those functions.