Hey! It's so good to have the forums back up and running - Looks Great. Thanks Bob and Jeanne!
So, this is the first time I've used an RME UFX III (USB3) Interface. It is generally working fine so far in my testing.
But, I'm really struggling to maintain SAC Audio Device Settings when I boot the pc and start up SAC.
Most times, even though I've saved and called up the correct Preference File (I haven't saved this as default yet, because I'm in a transition between the older RME pci card setup and this USB scheme), I usually first get the "unrecognized" ASIO Protocol thing and have to check the UFX as the correct device. That will often fix things, but cause me to have to recall the Preference File again in order to populate the I/O in the "correct" order for my purposes. Today, however, after going through those steps, the Audio Devices list showed just blank entries where I'd normally see each I/O listed, until the place in the list where "Not Assigned" showed. I had to close SAC and restart it, going through the same steps again in order to see the list populated properly.
I haven't been able to do extensive testing yet (until I can actually connect to a mixer with MADI on it, so I can test multitrack recording to SAW). But I fully expect that the UFX and SAC will work fine together. I'm a bit concerned about this situation with getting this USB interface to work at the setup stage with SAC. The only other USB experience I've had up to this point is with the Behringer x32 console and that's been a breeze, but it was/is on a laptop, with no way to actively monitor and mix - instead, just using SAC as a front end to record in SAW.
Does anybody have any suggestions, or insights about this strangeness?
I've also been a bit flustered at the need to physically unplug and re-plug the USB cable to get SAC/SAW (or anything else) to recognize the MADI I/O when I first boot up the pc. It is evidently "a thing", based on some online searching I've done. I don't get it.
Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Moderator: Bob L
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Are you on 11?
I have had similar problems with presonus series III of having to boot in specific order or the audio is hosed up and everything must be restarted rather than a cable re-insertion.
One of the things I did was disabling windows audio service. Windows loads a wdm wrapper around the asio drivers for the first few channels, and applies its sample-rate... which may not coincide with the setting you use in studio.
In the presonus case, there were 2 groups of drivers listed in system device-drivers. I wound up disabling the wdm drivers* and the locked audio issue is greatly alleviated.
Also the usb is plug-and play so the OS re-enumerates them when it boots.
BTW I also have used behringer mixers and found they worked pretty reliably (but this may have been on win10 - which didn't seem to pretend to be pro-audio as much as 11 does).
I explored this extensively - but that was about a year ago, so the details are a bit fuzzy.
*Not really a problem for me - but could be for others, the midi driver for the presonus was bundled with the wdm drivers - I think under game devices. I haven't taken the time to see if that one portion can be run - but I have the sense that was managed by windows audio.
I have had similar problems with presonus series III of having to boot in specific order or the audio is hosed up and everything must be restarted rather than a cable re-insertion.
One of the things I did was disabling windows audio service. Windows loads a wdm wrapper around the asio drivers for the first few channels, and applies its sample-rate... which may not coincide with the setting you use in studio.
In the presonus case, there were 2 groups of drivers listed in system device-drivers. I wound up disabling the wdm drivers* and the locked audio issue is greatly alleviated.
Also the usb is plug-and play so the OS re-enumerates them when it boots.
BTW I also have used behringer mixers and found they worked pretty reliably (but this may have been on win10 - which didn't seem to pretend to be pro-audio as much as 11 does).
I explored this extensively - but that was about a year ago, so the details are a bit fuzzy.
*Not really a problem for me - but could be for others, the midi driver for the presonus was bundled with the wdm drivers - I think under game devices. I haven't taken the time to see if that one portion can be run - but I have the sense that was managed by windows audio.
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Windows 11 claims to be Pro Audio???
Wow! I would never have figured, given the troubles I had just cleaning it up for use in the studio for the two brief months I tried to convince myself to change from Windows 10.
Anyway, I'm on Windows 10 (pro).
I'm no expert at any of this, but I think there is a fundamental difference between the way Presonus works with Windows audio and what RME does, even though they're both USB devices. I think I know what you're talking about with the Presonus, WDM drivers, etc., as I also work with Presonus USB interfaces now and then (not on this pc). Points noted.. thanks.
I see what you're saying, too, about how the usb is plug-and play so the OS re-enumerates them when it boots...
I didn't know about this until very recently, when reading up about this issue I'm having with the UFX3.
It's puzzling to me, in that respect, that this should be the cause, since the UFX3 is the only device I have on the USB3 port.
That is, unless Windows does this hokey-pokey shuffling around of usb devices as one big system, regardless of usb2 or 3.
Today will be the first time in a week that I'm actually rebooting and then continuing testing. So I will hopefully be able to explore the main issue I was concerned about, when starting up SAC and the messed up audio device settings. It may be the case that I have to set the UFX3 MADI I/O assignments and save it as default (as opposed to just saving to file and calling it up after starting SAC) in order for SAC to properly populate the I/O after rebooting the pc. We'll see today.
As for the usb.... I can adjust to booting and then repluging the UFX3 usb cable, if that's what it takes. As long as I don't lose the connection mid-recording, I'm okay with it - So far, this hasn't happened and I think it's thanks to the ever-reliable performance of RME designs - at least in my experience.
Wow! I would never have figured, given the troubles I had just cleaning it up for use in the studio for the two brief months I tried to convince myself to change from Windows 10.
Anyway, I'm on Windows 10 (pro).
I'm no expert at any of this, but I think there is a fundamental difference between the way Presonus works with Windows audio and what RME does, even though they're both USB devices. I think I know what you're talking about with the Presonus, WDM drivers, etc., as I also work with Presonus USB interfaces now and then (not on this pc). Points noted.. thanks.
I see what you're saying, too, about how the usb is plug-and play so the OS re-enumerates them when it boots...
I didn't know about this until very recently, when reading up about this issue I'm having with the UFX3.
It's puzzling to me, in that respect, that this should be the cause, since the UFX3 is the only device I have on the USB3 port.
That is, unless Windows does this hokey-pokey shuffling around of usb devices as one big system, regardless of usb2 or 3.
Today will be the first time in a week that I'm actually rebooting and then continuing testing. So I will hopefully be able to explore the main issue I was concerned about, when starting up SAC and the messed up audio device settings. It may be the case that I have to set the UFX3 MADI I/O assignments and save it as default (as opposed to just saving to file and calling it up after starting SAC) in order for SAC to properly populate the I/O after rebooting the pc. We'll see today.
As for the usb.... I can adjust to booting and then repluging the UFX3 usb cable, if that's what it takes. As long as I don't lose the connection mid-recording, I'm okay with it - So far, this hasn't happened and I think it's thanks to the ever-reliable performance of RME designs - at least in my experience.
-
Guest
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
I forgot to mention the first level of remedy, was to allow the mixer to completely boot before starting the pc - I wound up finding a delay setting in bios so I could just flip the switch that powered both and the PC paused long enough for the mixer to be ready. Since your rme drivers are behaving better than the presonus' (as the unplug and replug the usb cable didn't work on that), you might find that just controlling the boot sequence does the trick
Part of the usb initialization is the ability to pass a firmware payload to the remote device (which of course it can't accept if it is not powered up. I had some telco devices where I learned about this the hard way). I don't know about RME's driver implementation does this, so regard this as speculation. In any case it seems reasonable that there is handshaking between the device and the drivers are being loaded - and certainly some when the PNP is discovering hardware.
Part of the usb initialization is the ability to pass a firmware payload to the remote device (which of course it can't accept if it is not powered up. I had some telco devices where I learned about this the hard way). I don't know about RME's driver implementation does this, so regard this as speculation. In any case it seems reasonable that there is handshaking between the device and the drivers are being loaded - and certainly some when the PNP is discovering hardware.
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Guest? That was me. The page timed out and I entered the challenge characters and it posted that way.
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Ah.... the Guest of JMH....... sounds like a story I read once.
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Well, I found one solution to the issue I had where SAC/SAW wouldn't populate the audio devices list without some amount of screwing around, reopening the program, even unplugging and replugging the UFX usb cable...
I've temporarily disabled the 2 Hammerfall pci cards in Device Manager that I had been using with the Digiface interfaces (to get 48 analog mic channels). I was even able to reboot the pc without having to replug the usb cable.
I wasn't trying to use both the pci and usb devices at the same time - simply wanting to keep both available, should I need to switch back to the pci routing. I can certainly do that, should the need arise. But for now it solves the problems I was having.
When I get the time, it would still be nice to find out if I can make use of both simultaneously.
I've temporarily disabled the 2 Hammerfall pci cards in Device Manager that I had been using with the Digiface interfaces (to get 48 analog mic channels). I was even able to reboot the pc without having to replug the usb cable.
I wasn't trying to use both the pci and usb devices at the same time - simply wanting to keep both available, should I need to switch back to the pci routing. I can certainly do that, should the need arise. But for now it solves the problems I was having.
When I get the time, it would still be nice to find out if I can make use of both simultaneously.
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Spoke too soon -
Even though the pci cards are still disabled in Device Manager, SAC and SAW still appear to be confused when I boot up the pc and open the programs.
I check the audio devices list after booting up and the Hammerfall pci card is still listed and I get the "unrecognized" ASIO Protocol thing. This, even if the UFX3 is actually checked. The Audio Device list is either unpopulated, or is populated in the default order. And this happens even though I've saved everything as the default preferences in both SAW and SAC.
I still have to do some dance around between opening/closing the programs, re-loading the preference files (which I saved as both default and their own files) and ultimately unplugging and replugging the UFX3's usb cable... then reopening SAW/SAC.
Also, RME's Totalmix has no issue with assigning the UFX3 as the active device upon booting up the pc.
Once set, things seem to work fine. But I'm concerned that something could go haywire when I need to boot and reboot three or four days in a row at the annual 3-day festival gig coming up in a few weeks.
Any ideas?
Can I trust this, even though I have to reset things every time I reboot?
Will I be forced to uninstall the Hammerfall pci cards and drivers in order for SAW/SAC to load the preferences correctly at boot up?
I'm hoping to keep them on standby, in case I need to reconnect the old system for some reason.
Even though the pci cards are still disabled in Device Manager, SAC and SAW still appear to be confused when I boot up the pc and open the programs.
I check the audio devices list after booting up and the Hammerfall pci card is still listed and I get the "unrecognized" ASIO Protocol thing. This, even if the UFX3 is actually checked. The Audio Device list is either unpopulated, or is populated in the default order. And this happens even though I've saved everything as the default preferences in both SAW and SAC.
I still have to do some dance around between opening/closing the programs, re-loading the preference files (which I saved as both default and their own files) and ultimately unplugging and replugging the UFX3's usb cable... then reopening SAW/SAC.
Also, RME's Totalmix has no issue with assigning the UFX3 as the active device upon booting up the pc.
Once set, things seem to work fine. But I'm concerned that something could go haywire when I need to boot and reboot three or four days in a row at the annual 3-day festival gig coming up in a few weeks.
Any ideas?
Can I trust this, even though I have to reset things every time I reboot?
Will I be forced to uninstall the Hammerfall pci cards and drivers in order for SAW/SAC to load the preferences correctly at boot up?
I'm hoping to keep them on standby, in case I need to reconnect the old system for some reason.
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Could there be something preventing the pref files from writing like a read only flag for the SAW and/or SAC folders... I have seen this flag set when copying folders from one machine to another... update the settings then save the prefs, then load a different pref file and make sure things change... then load the new one you just saved... make sure they are saving and restoring correctly without rebooting the machine.
They may not be updating even though you think you are saving them.
Bob L
They may not be updating even though you think you are saving them.
Bob L
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
Thanks Bob.
Preference files seem to be saving and changing okay when opened, except for the audio device settings.
I've just realized/recognized that the UFX front panel "Host" indicator displays two different colors (mentioned in the manual in passing).
I had to do some online digging to find out what the two colors mean - blue for usb3 connected and yellow/amber when it resorts to usb2, which it automatically does under some circumstances. This may explain why SAC/SAW doesn't see the correct devices sometimes.
I've figured out that for SAC/SAW to open with the correct devices listed, I must first turn on the UFX and then turn on the pc. This is also when the UFX displays the blue host light. If I boot the pc and then turn on the UFX, the amber host light is displayed and even though Totalmix shows all the channels as I've stored them, SAC and SAW fail to display the devices. This is when I have to fiddle around unplugging and replugging the usb cable to the pc and close and reopen SAC/SAW and try to reopen what should be the default preference file again.
In fact, I should clarify that when I open SAC/SAW to check the audio devices list and it's screwed up (even when the ASIO Protocol is correct), the channel labels that should be assigned are actually blank - they don't even say "Not Assigned" - they're just blank. The unassigned devices DO say "Not Assigned", however.
My immediate solution all the way around is to be sure to turn on the UFX before booting the pc.
I'm still puzzled as to why this situation exists in SAC and SAW, when using (at least This) RME UFX USB interface. This problem doesn't exist when using the PCI interfaces (at least it's simple to correct, when reassigning devices). It also doesn't seem to be an issue with the couple of usb 2.0 interfaces I've used. It seems to be particular to the USB 3.0 interface - only in the case of a MADI device?... I don't know, or pretend to understand.
Is this particular to SAC/SAW and could it be "corrected" with an update? Would it be a problem in other daws? I don't have any other installed in this pc. Or is this just the nature of the USB 3.0 audio interface beast?
Preference files seem to be saving and changing okay when opened, except for the audio device settings.
I've just realized/recognized that the UFX front panel "Host" indicator displays two different colors (mentioned in the manual in passing).
I had to do some online digging to find out what the two colors mean - blue for usb3 connected and yellow/amber when it resorts to usb2, which it automatically does under some circumstances. This may explain why SAC/SAW doesn't see the correct devices sometimes.
I've figured out that for SAC/SAW to open with the correct devices listed, I must first turn on the UFX and then turn on the pc. This is also when the UFX displays the blue host light. If I boot the pc and then turn on the UFX, the amber host light is displayed and even though Totalmix shows all the channels as I've stored them, SAC and SAW fail to display the devices. This is when I have to fiddle around unplugging and replugging the usb cable to the pc and close and reopen SAC/SAW and try to reopen what should be the default preference file again.
In fact, I should clarify that when I open SAC/SAW to check the audio devices list and it's screwed up (even when the ASIO Protocol is correct), the channel labels that should be assigned are actually blank - they don't even say "Not Assigned" - they're just blank. The unassigned devices DO say "Not Assigned", however.
My immediate solution all the way around is to be sure to turn on the UFX before booting the pc.
I'm still puzzled as to why this situation exists in SAC and SAW, when using (at least This) RME UFX USB interface. This problem doesn't exist when using the PCI interfaces (at least it's simple to correct, when reassigning devices). It also doesn't seem to be an issue with the couple of usb 2.0 interfaces I've used. It seems to be particular to the USB 3.0 interface - only in the case of a MADI device?... I don't know, or pretend to understand.
Is this particular to SAC/SAW and could it be "corrected" with an update? Would it be a problem in other daws? I don't have any other installed in this pc. Or is this just the nature of the USB 3.0 audio interface beast?
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
You should always have all the peripheral devices powered up before booting the system... that has nothing to do with SAC and SAW... the computer needs to see all devices active when it makes its bootup check... in fact... I recommend never turning the system off.
If the system does not properly initialize a device at bootup, it wont see it properly and will not be able to pass it on to SAC and SAW. A PCI device is always available at computer power up.
Bob L
If the system does not properly initialize a device at bootup, it wont see it properly and will not be able to pass it on to SAC and SAW. A PCI device is always available at computer power up.
Bob L
Re: Maintaining SAC Audio Device Settings with RME UFX III (USB3)
I agree about leaving the system up all the time and generally do.
It's very difficult, if you must stay connected to the internet, which means that MS will reboot the system during forced updates at the very least, once a month. In the case of this mobile rig, I must power down to pack up, of course.
The dif. between pci and usb devices makes perfect sense. Don't know why it didn't occur to me.
It's very difficult, if you must stay connected to the internet, which means that MS will reboot the system during forced updates at the very least, once a month. In the case of this mobile rig, I must power down to pack up, of course.
The dif. between pci and usb devices makes perfect sense. Don't know why it didn't occur to me.