SAWStudio / SAC User Group

Good day,

I have a query - and a possible "challenge" for the Forum members with regards to removing, if-at-all-possible, the "qwacki-ness" from a piezo pickup!

The "pickup systems" that I currently employ for the acoustic guitars are from kna Pickups, 1) the NG-1 for the nylon-strung, and 2) the SG-1 for the steel-strung.

• I was looking for both a "non-invasive" and rather unobtrusive pickup system for both guitars.

My question is simply this, "Employing only RML Labs plug-ins , What channel configuration could be employed for removing the inherent piezo output sound for the steel-strung?"

• Thus far, I am reasonably satisfied with the output for the nylon-strung.

As always, any assistance in this matter would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

Do use a high impedance input? In most cases a high impedance input (active DI or that like) solves that kind of problems for me.

Are you using a Piezo compatible DI box?

if not.. I'd look at one of these.

https://www.radialeng.com/product/pz-di

The PZ-DI has a variable load selector switch that allows you to set the input impedance of the direct box, so you can optimize the performance with your instrument's pickups. The 1 meg ohm position delivers the classic impedance found on most active DI boxes, while the 220k ohm setting warms up the tone of magnetic pickups to provide the feel and tone as if your instrument were connected directly to an amplifier. The third setting is an ultra-high 10 meg ohm impedance that is specifically designed for piezo transducers, helping compensate for the harsh or squawky tone that can occur when a piezo is connected to a lower impedance input.

mr_es335 wrote:John and Philip,

I was not intending to come across or to be "rude or obnoxious", 1) as I stated, "I was looking for both a 'non-invasive' and rather unobtrusive pickup system for both guitars", and 2) ..."me thinks", that after all these years of using piezo's, that someone would have come up with the "ways-and-means" of correcting the output of a piezo?

That is it! And apparently I was completely-and-utterly wrong in my assumption!

Thus, please forgive me for this assumption!

1. I didn't take your question as being rude or obnoxious and 2. They have, thats why they make DI's specifically for Piezo pickups.

I'm I correct that your connecting the pickup directly to your rig or using a non-piezo DI?

The harsh or squawky tone your referring to is impacted by the input impedance of the device your connecting the pickup to, which is why Piezo DI's have extremely high input impedance.

I did not manage to cure a piezo connected to a standard passive DI using EQ or FX on the desk (But I very seldom had to mix an acoustic guitar with steel-strings with just a piezo without electronics, in most cases other instruments like mandolins or violines). The 'special' sound is created by a resonance inside the piezo cristal and its frequency and Q depends on the external load. So for a pure piezo pickup go for an input impedance as high as possible. In the mix, the only possible cure I can think of would be some kind of dynamic Eq. But you'd to re-adjust it any time the load of the pick-up will change ( other DI, longer / shorter / other cable between guitar and Di .... ). I think that's why the most piezos come with some electonics to make the sound independet from the input it will be connected to.

hi, firs happy new year
second, have a look at the '' Stageman floor by Nux, an accoustic preamp.
I don't know if it can help you, but it's the only thing I can do

mr_es335 wrote:John and Philip,

I was not intending to come across or to be "rude or obnoxious", 1) as I stated, "I was looking for both a 'non-invasive' and rather unobtrusive pickup system for both guitars", and 2) ..."me thinks", that after all these years of using piezo's, that someone would have come up with the "ways-and-means" of correcting the output of a piezo?

That is it! And apparently I was completely-and-utterly wrong in my assumption!

Thus, please forgive me for this assumption!

I took no offense, Dell. I was just surprised that you went away from those gorgeous-sounding ones you had found.

There are other less expensive Di alternatives

$99 - https://www.sweetwater.com/c957--Ess_Di ... =StageBug4
$89 - https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... ent-preamp

The answer Dell, (at least in my opinion) is the Tone Dexter pedal by Audio Sprockets. It's not cheap at around $600, but it is THE ANSWER to getting decent sound out of your piezo pickups. (I found one on eBay for a few hundred bucks) To use it, you plug in your guitar from its pickup into one input on the Tone Dexter, and a microphone you've set up into the other input. You then play for a couple of minutes, and it figures out the difference between your microphone sound and your pickup sound, and creates what they call a "wavemap" for that particular combination. You can save (at least on my early version) up to 22 different combinations of instruments and microphones. End result - you plug your guitar into the Tone Dexter and the tone dexter into your sound system, and get microphonic sound out of your piezo pickup. It truly is magic! Take a look at the Audio Sprockets website for more details. (I'm not affiliated with the company, but I probably should be. I'm amazed)

John Francis
Rolla, MO

John,

Firstly, thanks for the suggestion of the Tone Dexter pedal - which I did look into...and which is indeed very interesting!

Secondly, some time ago I wrote a fairly extensive, thirty-two page document outlining what I refer to as "a simplistic approach" to live performance, and which consists of seven criteria, namely:

1) To be as portable as is possible.
2) To be as easy to setup [Load-in] and to take-down [Load-out] as is possible.
3) To be entirely Windows-based.
4) To be able to perform an entire evening's solo performance all with no - or at least, minimal intervention on the part of the performer.
5) To prohibit the use of any type of pedal-board or other such "external" guitar-related gear.
6) To allow for connections for up to four devices consisting of three guitars and one microphone.
7) To be able to accommodate a maximum floor area of thirty-five-four square feet - or five feet by seven feet.

As can be observed in the above, the most significant criteria for or purposes here is criteria #5, "To prohibit the use of any type of pedal-board or other such 'external" guitar-related gear"...thus negating the employment of the Tone Dexter pedal.

However, all is not lost. After perusing over 50 systems - including the highly touted "Barbera Transducers", I decided to revisit the 2Mix...in response to your previous query.

For a time I was the Canadian distributor of the 2Mic - simply meaning that I had "stock" of a number of the various systems and prototypes available to me. To keep a long-story-short, I took one of the existing Model 8 prototypes and revamped that unit to meet my current needs. And low-and-behold, I was "gobsmacked"!
* As present, I am not at liberty to say more as discussions with Ken Donnell are still in their infancy. When I am able to say more, I will then do so.

Anyhow John, thanks again for the "tip" - which was greatly appreciated!!

PS: One other little tid-bit, the Model 8 is low impedance...so no Di is required. A real bonus!!

John F wrote:The answer Dell, (at least in my opinion) is the Tone Dexter pedal by Audio Sprockets. It's not cheap at around $600, but it is THE ANSWER to getting decent sound out of your piezo pickups. (I found one on eBay for a few hundred bucks) To use it, you plug in your guitar from its pickup into one input on the Tone Dexter, and a microphone you've set up into the other input. You then play for a couple of minutes, and it figures out the difference between your microphone sound and your pickup sound, and creates what they call a "wavemap" for that particular combination. You can save (at least on my early version) up to 22 different combinations of instruments and microphones. End result - you plug your guitar into the Tone Dexter and the tone dexter into your sound system, and get microphonic sound out of your piezo pickup. It truly is magic! Take a look at the Audio Sprockets website for more details. (I'm not affiliated with the company, but I probably should be. I'm amazed)

John Francis
Rolla, MO

OOOoooohhhhh.... :-O I want one of those.

It seems like it's doing much the same thing that Sonarworks product does for helping bring a room to flat - and I'm a big fan of that.

This has been a very informative set of posts for me. I've learned a lot about what I didn't know about piezo options. I've just been living-with/EQ-ing the result of in-guitar amplification solutions since the eighties. They're so convenient, and mics on stands are often troublesome - particularly in crowded spaces.

I have to wonder if something similar could be achieved with simple EQ curve matching as can be done with Voxengo's CurveEQ and others. Of course, that means having the matching curve online with SAW in Live Mode or something similar. Not ideal for live performance. Although if you're using SAC, you should be fine.

Hmmm... SAW's showing 4096 samples of latency for CurveEQ (32-bit version jBridged to 64-bit). Hopefully, there's a latency-free EQ-curve-matching VST utility out there. Or maybe CurveEQ without the bridge? I believe there's a 64-bit version out there these days.

Dell, Demo 1 sounds great! Demo 2, not linked, it seems, FYI.

I think those 2mics sound great, Dell. Although, maybe just a tad 'breathy'. Before I understood, I had presumed that there was reverb on all of the performances before I came to realize that it was only on part of the third.

The thing I like about at least the potential of the Tone Dexter, is that the mic you train it with, and its location relative to the instrument, become part and parcel of the sound. So, if you find fault with the result, you can change mics, or move the mic, or change the room, before you re-train it and get a different result. But once you get the sound you desire, it's locked in and you have it. And, in theory, you can get a result that closely matches the sound of a mic that you would never think of taking to a gig - without it actually being there.

I suppose you are limited to the dynamics of a piezo though. It will never track sudden changes in dynamics the way, for instance, a ribbon mic would. A piezo is sluggish by comparison. So, although the Tone Dexter capture of a ribbon mic may have its frequency characteristics, it should still react at the speed of the piezo.

I guess one caveat here is that I'm listening to all of this via the TV speaker through which I experience my Internet these days. It's not a good environment for sonic decision-making.