Automation of Same Colored Controls In Same Area Challenge

[Dave Labrecque]

Offset mode? ...but that's not what you were getting at.
you, you, and me...

There's simply too much to retain. And I find these forum discussions essential to learning.

Hear, hear.

[Dave Labrecque]

I think actually understanding the various functions of the Input FX Plugin is a black hole in the SAW User Manual, and that's where we started. And between us have revealed to ourselves what the "special feature"s of the Input FX Plugin is :-)

I think you're right. There's no discussion (I don't think) in the help file of the individual view filters. But whoda thunk there would need to be? The only one that appears to need further explanation is that last one, which has multiple features that are unique unto itself so far as I know. I'm half wondering if Bob even knows about them! But that wouldn't make sense, right? Surely he coded all that granularity into it. That could not have spontaneously arisen on its own. Right?

Sounds like AI has snuck in!

[Todd R]

Todd, are you really in France? Polly voo frahnsay?

oui, oui! je suis en France maintenant! Mon francais n'est pas terrible, tu sais...
I've been living full time in France since 2020...and been working from my current residence since 2013
I have income property in the UK.
I moved to the UK in '96 and discovered SAW SE on the shelf at a computer store in '98.
I was born and raised in northern California; high school in Dallas, TX, then back to Cali.

[Todd R]

I think you're right. There's no discussion (I don't think) in the help file of the individual view filters. But whoda thunk there would need to be? The only one that appears to need further explanation is that last one, which has multiple features that are unique unto itself so far as I know. I'm half wondering if Bob even knows about them! But that wouldn't make sense, right? Surely he coded all that granularity into it. That could not have spontaneously arisen on its own. Right?

Sounds like AI has snuck in!

I'm going to say it is certainly a high order of difficulty to write any user manual. Something as complicated as a DAW is doubly difficult.
It might take users 20 years to discover certain functionalities! (sarc)

I should think the Input FX Plugin automation filtering is all by design; and it is smart, just have to arrive at a situation in which user is required to practice that functionality :-)
Is that Input FX Plugin functionality only relevant to an Input FX Plugin? Or does it also apply to Return and Output tracks? I haven't investigated that yet...surely, soon to come

Is it possible Mr Lentini left Return FX Plugin and Output FX Plugin filters out up until there was user outcry for said parameters? We do have FX sections on those channel types.
Or did the explanations just not make it in the Owners Manual? I'll be finding out, because I do have FX on Output tracks.

[Todd R]

Ha!

ok, I'm reading Understanding The Virtual Console section of the Owners Manual again

I realize reading this that I have used further confusing terminology.
for example: "The data next passes through the FX Post Fader Patch. This allows you to patch in SAWStudio native plug-ins, or DirectX or VST plug-ins."

OK, I have been referring to mixer channel automation as "native", and they are...so then the term "plug-in" is required to differentiate between native mixer channel parameters and native SS plug-ins; because they are different things

[Dave Labrecque]

oui, oui! je suis en France maintenant! Mon francais n'est pas terrible, tu sais...
I've been living full time in France since 2020...and been working from my current residence since 2013
I have income property in the UK.
I moved to the UK in '96 and discovered SAW SE on the shelf at a computer store in '98.
I was born and raised in northern California; high school in Dallas, TX, then back to Cali.

Cool! I mean... Frais! Froid?

[Dave Labrecque]

I'm going to say it is certainly a high order of difficulty to write any user manual. Something as complicated as a DAW is doubly difficult.
It might take users 20 years to discover certain functionalities! (sarc)

I should think the Input FX Plugin automation filtering is all by design; and it is smart, just have to arrive at a situation in which user is required to practice that functionality :-)
Is that Input FX Plugin functionality only relevant to an Input FX Plugin? Or does it also apply to Return and Output tracks? I haven't investigated that yet...surely, soon to come

Is it possible Mr Lentini left Return FX Plugin and Output FX Plugin filters out up until there was user outcry for said parameters? We do have FX sections on those channel types.
Or did the explanations just not make it in the Owners Manual? I'll be finding out, because I do have FX on Output tracks.

Insofar as there seems to be consistent differentiation of all kinds between I-, R-, and O-type channels, I'd put money on that filter being input-channel-specific. I bet it's a case of Bob's practical nature deeming the usefulness R or O FX Plugin flilters as low--because: how often would anyone need to automate plugin parameters across a bus like that? Let alone how often would anyone need to filter for those automation entries?

I'm thinking maybe the automatability of the native plugins came some time after the help file had been established--and relevant instructional text for that newer functionality's cool, new view filter never made it in. Just a guess.

[Todd R]

Cool! I mean... Frais! Froid?

Ooh la...les francais utilise le mot anglais (Americain) "cool"
Frais= "fresh";
froid="cold"

uh, in english, the French people (over-)use the american term "cool"

[Todd R]

I have been using the F-Mixer a lot lately and pulling faders down on F-Mixer is about half the throw distance as Z-Mixer or W-Mixer (I never use W-Mixer)

Quoting myself, oh well

I haven't used the F-Mixer much over the years, and what a mistake!
I hadn't grasped the concept very well, and last week I found myself digging into the user manual.
Holy Toledo, the F-Mixer is packed with info about your session at a glance and gives so many shortcuts; instant access to the Z-Mixer channel, etc.

F-Mixer is a wonderful thing

[Dave Labrecque]

I don't find the VST wrapper engage/bypass in that pop-up which was yesterday's point. Possibly that switch resides somewhere else than all the native controls?

Sorry if this has already been covered (it's been a couple weeks ), but the Input FX Plugin filter handles that along with all the native plugin automation we've discussed.

[Todd R]

I just re-read this thread, good stuff jmh and Dave!

I do have quite a few different reverbs in my surround job, switching from scene to scene to change rvbs can be a bit of a challenge...I just mean my returns are pretty much full

further, I was unable to get into the forum for some months, so I "ghosted" this discussion because of that and the forum rebuild
thank goodness the forum has been saved and improved :-D

Yes, Dave, I understand: the Input FX Plugin filter handles the VST wrapper engage/ bypass state :-)

[Todd R]

Whenever you are making multiple automation changes in the same area, it helps to move the cursor slightly so each auromation entry is happening at a unique location... even just a few ms away from the last one... then its easy to ctrl-tab from one to the next for adjusting... avoid doing multiple entries at the same location.

Bob L

[Todd R]

Whenever you are making multiple automation changes in the same area, it helps to move the cursor slightly so each auromation entry is happening at a unique location... even just a few ms away from the last one... then its easy to ctrl-tab from one to the next for adjusting... avoid doing multiple entries at the same location.

Bob L

Really? I have been putting multiple automation entries in the exact same location, that way I don't have to try to remember which entry is which; many are all in the same time location. That said, I'm talking mainly about fader and return levels for the most part...and it is isn't music I'm working on, so I usually only have about 6-8 input tracks max playing back at one time. Is this an avoid tactic because of MT Load? or?

[Todd R]

No... simply makes it easy to go back and edit each entry... when you have x number of entries at the same location then its hard to edit each entry without stepping thru the various filter options.

Bob L

[Todd R]

No... simply makes it easy to go back and edit each entry... when you have x number of entries at the same location then its hard to edit each entry without stepping thru the various filter options.

Bob L

Ah, OK, you are talking about workflow; thanks for the clarification :-)

I used to do as you suggest, yet I found static controls at leading sections of regions before playback starts to be much easier to deal with in one entry location than ctrl-TAB/ ctrl-shift-TAB to all the different entries;
also gets a little messy for my liking

that said, my workflow is very nailed down

[Todd R]

its all good... each person works differently.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Am I right in thinking that the only reason to separate them would be to see them and know that they're there? It doesn't limit one's ability to individually tweak them if they're all on top of each other, right? I've found Snapshot Chan Settings to MT Automation pretty handy at times.

In that case, it would be cool to have some kind of indicator to reveal what types are at any cursor location. It would seem cleaner than keeping them apart, zooming to see the detail, etc. Of course the current answer to revealing what's there is to use the view filter, which is not so quick, BUT is required if one wants to pick a type to fade to, for example. It'd be cool to look at the "automation at cursor" display and simply select the one of interest in that case. Quicker and easier than perusing the view filter. Or keeping them separated in the first place.

A little late in the game to suggest such an enhancement, ya say? Yeah, I know. Sorry. Twenty-five years in, I guess I still get excited about SAW stuff.

[Todd R]

Am I right in thinking that the only reason to separate them would be to see them and know that they're there? It doesn't limit one's ability to individually tweak them if they're all on top of each other, right? I've found Snapshot Chan Settings to MT Automation pretty handy at times.

I don't know this...need to read up and try

In that case, it would be cool to have some kind of indicator to reveal what types are at any cursor location. It would seem cleaner than keeping them apart, zooming to see the detail, etc. Of course the current answer to revealing what's there is to use the view filter, which is not so quick, BUT is required if one wants to pick a type to fade to, for example. It'd be cool to look at the "automation at cursor" display and simply select the one of interest in that case. Quicker and easier than perusing the view filter. Or keeping them separated in the first place.

You mean more specific than Full Mixer which at least gives an at a glance which params are automated?

Dave, what would you want? The same as the automation view filter contextual pop-up with checks for every automated param? The unused params greyed out?
Cuz as it stands, the top most param in the list gets a single check mark in the AVFCM (automation view filter contextual menu) depending upon which param has been automated. The params shown are in order (from top to bottom) of the available params in the AVFCM depending upon channel designation and the params below whatever the top most param that is automated are not displayed.
Yeah, I use the full mixer for this view at a glance and obviously the Z-Mixer for specific param settings.

I mean, the thing that would help me the most at this stage is a toggle for groups of VST wrappers to display or hide. Maybe there is a way that I haven't realized. I need about 8 VST wrappers open and show/ hide of those is so time consuming I use other means to view full mixer.

[Todd R]

ah, OK now I see that I would seldom use "Snapshot Chan Settings to MT Automation" because I most often write automation offline or use Automation Gallery.
If I was using a control surface, I'd likely use that more often.

[Dave Labrecque]

Am I right in thinking that the only reason to separate them would be to see them and know that they're there? It doesn't limit one's ability to individually tweak them if they're all on top of each other, right? I've found Snapshot Chan Settings to MT Automation pretty handy at times.

I don't know this...need to read up and try

FYI, another approach would be to drag the cursor over the cluster of automation entries and watch the Wide Mixer to see which controls move. And if nothing moves, and you want it to, move it! Either there's an entry there already that doesn't actually change the prior value (and you can now change it), or there's no such entry there yet (and you can now add one). IOW, no need to separate them, really. Unless you need to do more than a simple tweak.

More on the Snapshot function below (or above, I guess, depending on how you have your forum view set up).

In that case, it would be cool to have some kind of indicator to reveal what types are at any cursor location. It would seem cleaner than keeping them apart, zooming to see the detail, etc. Of course the current answer to revealing what's there is to use the view filter, which is not so quick, BUT is required if one wants to pick a type to fade to, for example. It'd be cool to look at the "automation at cursor" display and simply select the one of interest in that case. Quicker and easier than perusing the view filter. Or keeping them separated in the first place.

You mean more specific than Full Mixer which at least gives an at a glance which params are automated?

Yes. The Full Mixer doesn't really show much detail. Fade, solo, mute, whether the various channel strip modules are on line. The Wide Mixer shows all the details (save for plugin-in automation specifics), but it's still kind of an indirect way to zero in on a particular parameter. I'm envisioning a simple display—say, to the right of the Solo and Sync lights in the MT display panel—that lists whatever automation types are represented by an entry at the cursor position. You look at the top of the MT, which you're already working in, and you see what you got. You want to work with/see just one or two of those? Click it/them. And the filter is engaged.

Dave, what would you want? The same as the automation view filter contextual pop-up with checks for every automated param? The unused params greyed out?
Cuz as it stands, the top most param in the list gets a single check mark in the AVFCM (automation view filter contextual menu) depending upon which param has been automated. The params shown are in order (from top to bottom) of the available params in the AVFCM depending upon channel designation and the params below whatever the top most param that is automated are not displayed.
Yeah, I use the full mixer for this view at a glance and obviously the Z-Mixer for specific param settings.

I was thinking something like this:

Automation At Cursor Ideation.jpg (152.67 KiB) Viewed 47001 times

Maybe the display only comes on when we enter Automation Mode. Or maybe that's a user-defined preference. The cool thing is, as I may have mentioned, when you click on an entry (or two?), it filters the MT display for that type(s).

I mean, the thing that would help me the most at this stage is a toggle for groups of VST wrappers to display or hide. Maybe there is a way that I haven't realized. I need about 8 VST wrappers open and show/ hide of those is so time consuming I use other means to view full mixer.

This is gonna sound crazy, but I asked AI if there was a way, and it maybe hallucinating, but here ya go:

The absolute best way to open a specific group of VST plug-ins simultaneously in SAWStudio is by using the Control Track feature.While F-Key views only track native windows, a Control Track allows you to record and trigger exact window-open commands using MIDI or internal automation commands.How to Set Up a Plugin Macro via Control TrackActivate the Control Track: Go to the top menu and select Options > Control Track > Active to turn the feature on.Open the Control Track Window: Select View > Control Track to open its dedicated timeline interface.Record the Open Commands:Place the playback cursor at a specific timeline spot (e.g., bar 1).Click Record on the Control Track.Open the specific VST plugin interfaces you want from your mixer or track patch windows.SAWStudio will write an automation entry for each interface you open.Hit Stop.Trigger the Group: Whenever you navigate the cursor to that specific timeline spot or trigger that automation marker, all chosen plugins will snap open instantly.