SAWStudio / SAC User Group

Hi everyone,

I need your help. I've had this experience twice now and I was even thinking of calling Bob to get his advice. I thought I'd bring it up here in case we can help others avoid my nightmare.

Anyway, I know I'm making classic mistakes and I'm also due for a re-read of the recording section in the manual but here's what's happening:

1. Classic mistake #1... Busy session, running late on the setup. I started sawstudio with a blank edl, labelled my tracks (may have gone into record rdy mode to check levels on the meters) and saved the edl to a master project folder, naming it "Setup". I then saved it again with the name of the first song. Each time we moved on to a new song I'd save and close the current edl and open the "Setup" one, save it with the new song name, record and repeat. (all in the same folder)

We got a little past halfway through the session and started to listen to the takes... Unfortunately we seemed to have 4 different edls referencing one set of wav files. Needless to say, we re-recorded the tunes and saved the day but it was embarrasing. Understand that this was a hectic session with busy players on a holiday Monday. Anyway, I have't gone back to see what's actually there but I fear it was my use of the retake feature that put the nail in the coffin on my mistake.

Classic mistake #2: Using un-do in the middle of a recording session. This happened today... I no longer make classic mistake #1 so everything was going smoothly (even comping together a lead vocal on the fly!... quite an accomplishment for me ). We go to lay down a double and end up doing a few edits on it... The producer tells me to delete the whole take, so I use ctrl-< a few times to undo my edits, and eventually the whole region dissappers... I'm actually a little foggy on what happened next (it *was* busy). I definitely saved the edl at some point but I re-armed a track, they tried a few more takes (I hit retake a few times) and then realized we were missing a previous vocal take. Somehow I lost a take That's simply not like me!

Anyway, all kidding aside, I could use some help with this. I really need to hone the routine before I embarrass myself any further

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

I see keywords, "busy", "little foggy", "fear", "mistake"....

eliminate those words from your vocabulary and you'll be fine. I always try to make sure everyone in the studio knows that if they rush me, the product will not be top quality and mistakes will be made.

As for a "command" or "software" solution, dont use ctrl-< for undoing takes, and "save as" more often if it's a problem. The time it takes to type 'superband-track2-905-81505.edl' saves the time it takes to write that big ass post later


Yes, that's how I name backups. Band-track-time-date.edl

David,

Please consider following my advice in the first demo video of the band recording. If you do... you will not have these kinds of complications.

It can be a very simple procedure...

Create a NEW folder under your master project folder... FOR EVERY SONG.

So... D:\Audio\BandName might be your master folder...
D:\Audio\BandName\Song01 might be your first song... etc

By doing this and leaving the SoundFile Record Path empty in the File Path Setup option of the Options menu... all files for each song will be contained independently in that song folder. There will be no crossing over of multiple songs in one file set.

This allows you total freedom to retake, or undo things... of course... still be careful (or disable) the Retake All function.

You can still maintain your starting setup template... but immediately save as the new song in the NEW SONG FOLDER.

This also makes it very simple to archive and copy or delete individual songs from the harddrive.

When you decide to delete a take... you can simply delete all regions connected with that take... the data will still be available in the wav files but not be part of the edl.

A simple method of clearing all tracks of all regions at once is to right-click any track label and select the Clear All Entries On Current Layer option while pressing the Ctrl-Key. You can also select specific tracks by clicking the track number and the option will clear only those tracks.

You might also want to experiment with the power and flexibility of doing layered takes and then building final composite takes later.

I would not worry about the growing file sizes with multiple takes for now... in the end... you can save and trim or extract the session and create brand new clean files of just the data used in the final edl... then you can delete the original stuff completely.

Bob L

AudioAstronomer wrote:I see keywords, "busy", "little foggy", "fear", "mistake"....

eliminate those words from your vocabulary and you'll be fine. I always try to make sure everyone in the studio knows that if they rush me, the product will not be top quality and mistakes will be made.

Good advice. Thanks Robert.

Bob L wrote:When you decide to delete a take... you can simply delete all regions connected with that take... the data will still be available in the wav files but not be part of the edl.

Yeah, I'm starting to think that's a good idea.

You might also want to experiment with the power and flexibility of doing layered takes and then building final composite takes later.

Well, I normally do that and I was using layers in today's session... The producer wanted to comp a vocal together during the session so he could hear the finished track and to save time later (they were taking the files with them to mix at their place).

I would not worry about the growing file sizes with multiple takes for now... in the end... you can save and trim or extract the session and create brand new clean files of just the data used in the final edl... then you can delete the original stuff completely.

Good point. I would like to get out of that 'headspace' (of conserving space or deleting takes that are not needed). Tape er, hard-disc space is cheap.

Meanwhile, more practice for me.

Thanks.

Dave - FWIW, one of the toughest lessons I learnt was producing a couple of projects for German radio. They insisted that EVERYTHING be documented. In fact they didn't send through any money until they had the all the documentation typed and bound in a project report along with the masters. It drove crazy at the time. The German producers were perfectly reasonable & respectful - which only made it worse!

But shortly afterwards I found myself blocking out time to tidy up my sessions to get everything in order before I moved onto the next stage of a production. It was actually quite positive - I realized how this process really does bring a certain clarity to everything. (... um... when I bother to do it).

So if a half-crazy Australian guy can do it then the same can't be that difficult for a certain Brampton Audio Person.

Andre

David Vanderploeg wrote:1. Classic mistake #1... Busy session, running late on the setup. I started sawstudio with a blank edl, labelled my tracks (may have gone into record rdy mode to check levels on the meters) and saved the edl to a master project folder, naming it "Setup". I then saved it again with the name of the first song. Each time we moved on to a new song I'd save and close the current edl and open the "Setup" one, save it with the new song name, record and repeat. (all in the same folder)

We got a little past halfway through the session and started to listen to the takes... Unfortunately we seemed to have 4 different edls referencing one set of wav files. Needless to say, we re-recorded the tunes and saved the day but it was embarrasing. Understand that this was a hectic session with busy players on a holiday Monday. Anyway, I have't gone back to see what's actually there but I fear it was my use of the retake feature that put the nail in the coffin on my mistake.

No, it wasn't the retakes. I had this exact scenario a couple of months ago, and actually had to have a nine-piece band come back in to recut six songs. We even played back each take before moving on, and I didn't discover the problem until I started mixing. The files were actually being overwritten from the beginning with each new song because the base filename was staying the same due to the repeated use of a setup (or template) EDL and recording into a single folder.

While you and I both acknowledge that recording everything into a single folder is a lousy way to organize a session (which I'll never do again!), I believe there is a problem with Studio here that needs to be addressed. Shouldn't it be absolutely impossible for Studio to completely overwrite a file without a warning during MT recording, just as it does when doing a Build Mix? It always seemed to me that SAW would append to files instead, but apparently this isn't true across songs in this situation. Bob?

Tree Leopard wrote:So if a half-crazy Australian guy can do it then the same can't be that difficult for a certain Brampton Audio Person.

I think I'll go have a look at those files right now Andre! Thanks for the story and the prodding...

Sean McCoy wrote:We even played back each take before moving on, and I didn't discover the problem until I started mixing.

Yeah, that's the scary part about this scenario.

The files were actually being overwritten from the beginning with each new song because the base filename was staying the same due to the repeated use of a setup (or template) EDL and recording into a single folder.

Did you check this? That makes more sense than a retake all issue. I'm going to repeat my procedure, just to test this out... The sad thing about my situation (and possibly yours) is I didn't take the time to click on 'Setup' in the record transport to make sure things were OK. I almost always do that yet on this particular day, under these particular circumstances...

I believe there is a problem with Studio here that needs to be addressed. Shouldn't it be absolutely impossible for Studio to completely overwrite a file without a warning during MT recording, just as it does when doing a Build Mix?

Agreed, and... Yes.

It always seemed to me that SAW would append to files instead, but apparently this isn't true across songs in this situation.

Ya know, thinking back on that day, I *was* aware of what I was doing... The risks I was taking (I've been using SAWStudio long enough to know). I remember thinking; OK, worst case scenario the files will be appended and things should be fine. That's why I assumed it was on a Retake All where I screwed things up.

I just tried the situation mentioned and I have to agree that is rather messed up so to say.

But it's also easily avoidable. So Im on the edge of the fence... Rather saw always warned before overwriting, but then again rather people wouldnt make silly mistakes (people includes me, probably 50% of the mistakes made in the world daily lol)

Warning every time you go to overdub in an existing file for every track armed to record would be rather insane, don't you agree.

If you follow my lead, I believe you will see the elegance of the design...

DO NOT enter a Base Filename in the template... then when you open the starting template and SAVE AS a new file in a new folder... the base name will follow the new filename... and you will be using a brand new set of files... simple...

If you enter a Buildmix BaseFilename... IT KEEPS IT... then you will open the possibility of carrying it thru to new SAVE AS spinoff sessions.... ON PURPOSE.

So, try this... start fresh... create whatever session template you want... save it and include something in the name so you recognize it as your starting template. Do Not touch the BaseFilename in the BuildMix dialog or Record Setp dialog... even though I just checked and the Record Basename is not saved in the edl.

Now... to start a new song... open the template... immediately create a folder and save as a new song.

Now you are ready... you should see the Record Setup Basename now take on the path and name of the new song in its own new folder.

Record for a while... save the session... close it.

To start a new song... repeat the procedure... you should see that the new Basename follows the new path and songname... at least it works that way on my rig.

Bob L

By the way... I just checked and deliberately forced the new session basename to an old session basename to cause the use of the same existing files... and the data was appended... not overwritten... so it does not delete existing data, as far as I can see, except when you tell it to retake.

Can you give me a step by step to cause the data to be deleted and overwritten?

Bob L

Bob L wrote:Warning every time you go to overdub in an existing file for every track armed to record would be rather insane, don't you agree.

Of course, and I see what you're saying here... there really is only one time/place to check for this. What about appending the files instead of overwriting them?

DO NOT enter a Base Filename in the template... then when you open the starting template and SAVE AS a new file in a new folder... the base name will follow the new filename... and you will be using a brand new set of files... simple...

In my case, I never entered a Base Filename in the template... What I *may* have done IIRC, is engaged record rdy or possibly even record while having the template open the first time (before Save As to the first song)... I'm guessing that may have locked things in. Bob, except for the separate folders for each song, I really was trying to follow the procedure you outline here.

If you enter a BaseFilename... IT KEEPS IT... then you will open the possibility of carrying it thru to new SAVE AS spinoff sessions.... ON PURPOSE.

Would you mind explaining what this is used for?

So, try this... start fresh... create whatever session template you want... save it and include something in the name so you recognize it as your starting template. Do Not touch the BaseFilename in the BuildMix dialog or Record Setup dialog.

Now... to start a new song... open the template... immediately create a folder and save as a new song.

Now you are ready... you should see the Record Setup Basename now take on the path and name of the new song in its own new folder.

Record for a while... save the session... close it.

To start a new song... repeat the procedure... you should see that the new Basename follows the new path and songname...

Bob, I'm sure you get sick and tired of typing this over and over... FWIW, thank you. The constant reminders do get through... Even though it may not be evident in this case.

Bob L wrote:the data was appended... not overwritten... so it does not delete existing data, as far as I can see, except when you tell it to retake.

Ah, OK... In my case, I think it was that I used the Retake All at one point.

I have to leave for a few hours but when I get back I'll repeat the procedure and report back.

I'm glad to hear the data is appended... that's what I always thought happened (under the hood) in this scenario.

Thank for checking on this Bob.

David,

If you enter a Buildmix BaseFilename... IT KEEPS IT... then you will open the possibility of carrying it thru to new SAVE AS spinoff sessions.... ON PURPOSE.

Would you mind explaining what this is used for?

The idea here was to allow you to force buildmix operations into a specific destination folder and hold that for the session and its spinoffs...

For instance, it is sometimes nice to create a Mixes folder under a song folder... then when building a mix the first time, you can change the Basename to point into that folder... from that point on... all mixes will automatically build to that folder until you reset the basename or change it to something else... this will then also carry over to spinoff sessions you may create along the way such as Song1a... Song1b... etc.

By the way you can reset the basename to the default current session path by simply Shift-Clicking in the Basename zone.

Hope that helps.

Bob L

David Vanderploeg wrote:Ah, OK... In my case, I think it was that I used the Retake All at one point.

In my case, I'm absolutely positive I didn't use any Retake functions during the session. I had six songs in separate, named EDL's that for whatever reason were all referencing the audio file name "Sweet Sue," which was the first song of that day's session. Each song was played back before moving on. Later, I later discovered that the audio files referenced by each of these songs contained only audio from the last song of the six that was recorded. The only exceptions to this were in one or two songs where I changed track names for alternate instrumentation, which created a brand new file. I can think of no explanation for this other than the audio files being overwritten.

As I mentioned to you in my email, Bob, I did suspect that the fact I had completely filled the hard drive during the previous session may have created some sort of reference point error, but that's a wild guess. I had cleared space on the drive before the new session, but hadn't defragged.

I agree that an overwrite prompt would be silly, and is unnecessary given that under normal circumstances the files should be appended, anyway. I've made cursory attempts at recreating the situation, but haven't been able to, which leads me to believe the files will only be overwritten in unusual cases---but it can happen.

Well, we are using computers with Windows... Anything CAN happen.

Bob L

Very True! I just did another quick test creating a template, recording, then saving with a new EDL name. The base name follows the EDL name exactly as it should, and won't overwrite file data even when the earlier base filename is forced in. Go figure. Maybe one of the musicians just brought a "bad vibe" virus into the room that day.

I tried extensive testing hoping to duplicate what happened the other day... Everything actually seems to work very well. Base filenames are changed when they should change, no matter how hard I try to mess things up. I actually learned some useful stuff here. I started to think it may be caused by setting a Record Template in the 'setup' edl but no... New base filenames are even created in that case.

I know I didn't manually enter a base filename the other day so that wasn't it.

I think what I had was a case of serious, serious operator error... What I must have done is opened the 'setup' edl and started recording a tune (by accident). Once we stopped, I did a Save As 'tunename'. I think I made this same mistake again later in the session (of recording in the 'setup' edl before doing a SaveAs) and then used the RetakeAll command on this second edl, deleting the wav files for both songs. This I can duplicate, but it's clear that I messed up big time and need to slow down as Robert suggests.

I'm convinced that my other problem from yesterday was a case of using RetakeAll and deleting takes from previous layers. I don't know why I'd gotten into such a habit of using RetakeAll when I should have been using Retake.

Live and learn! Thanks for everyone's patience on this one.

David Vanderploeg wrote: ... and then used the RetakeAll command....

I'm convinced that my other problem from yesterday was a case of using RetakeAll and deleting takes from previous layers. I don't know why I'd gotten into such a habit of using RetakeAll when I should have been using Retake.

Live and learn! Thanks for everyone's patience on this one.

Hi Dave!

For what it's worth... I hate erasing anything during a recording session. I'll avoid that if at all possible. And with the storage space we have available now it usually IS possible! ]known[/U] I didn't mean *that* part! That cost me XXXX dollars!!! (whatever it was).

"BUT..... " says I..

Luckily I had an assistant who was right there during the whole thing and he stuck up for me! She freaked... but finally calmed down and admitted that it was her fault.

I've had a producer or two attempt similar things... but usually I knew them enough to know better and avoided disaster.

My motto.. if you don't have to erase it right then on the spot and there's even any remote possibility that a mistake can be made (which is a *lot* of the time).. then just don't do it!!!

Anway... best of wishes Dave!

Perry